Was brown the old black?

[Bourbon Guy]

Way off topic

Consider this typical around here. At the Lounge you get an answer to the question you ask and those you have not yet thought of.

Having followed a number of forums on various topics over the years, all the threads seem to have a certain stream of consciousness about them, like a good conversation that follows a general topic, but veers off on tangents occasionally, then brought back by a poster. The better moderators allow that free flow of ideas. The A-personality moderators send out reprimanding private messages to posters and remove their posts and generally just piss people off, and their forums eventually die. I like it here.

 

[icecold]

Brown vs. Black leather - what was more common?

Hi there, I'm trying to figure out - if at all possible - what was the more common color for leather (jackets, coats) in the 20s-40s. It seems that overall brown has been quite a bit more common, but in most cases it is pretty hard to tell from vintage photographs.
More interestingly, if so, has there been some particular reason for it to be more common (e.g. technological, making it easier to dye the leather brown etc..., or cultural, making brown more "approrpiate", etc.).

 

[Edward]

There was a thread on this very topic some months back - I've tried several searches and can't turn it up - perhaps a passing bartender might be able to assist here?

In any case, the general consensus appeared to be that neither seemed particularly more common than the other in the Golden Era. I suspect that the notion of brown being more common is, as much as anything, a perception created by:

- the popularity of (and emphasis on in relation to discussions of the period) military flying jackets in the vintage community - borwn being the norm there

- IMO, in my lifetime black has always been by far the 'default' for leather jackets; this may make an era in which brown was equally as common appear to moddern eyes as if there was more borwn than black about.

Just my thoughts!

 

[Dinerman]

Here's the other thread:

Was Brown the Old Black?

 

[Feraud]

I worked the ol' merge on these two..

 

[cbrunt]

I've often wondered this question myself. When I began this "hobby" I assumed brown was the most common but the more I read, the less I think brown was the most popular.

I think personally brown was more popular in the early 1930s but by the early 1940s, black was perhaps slightly more popular. I base this on two period examples.

First is from 1930s Sears, Beck, Buco and Harley-Davidson catalogs. In the early catalogs (1931-1934 +/-), the horsehide jackets are mostly brown. But slowly, by 1940/41 almost all the horsehide jackets for sale were black. The suede (leather and fabric) jackets were still brown. Granted these are mostly motorcycle catalogs (except Sears) but whether they reflect the fashions or influence the fashions is up for debate but either way, black was becoming more popular.

Also, another example is this excellent color image (again, I'm using the LOC color library) taken in New Mexico in 1940 at a barbeque. Its a black leather jacket as you can see and the man is neither a young hepcat, nor a motorcyclist. So if an average older gent is wearing black in this 1940 image....



So maybe black was more popular by 1940? Or not. But like today... there's always the guy who is a little ahead of the fashions, then the guy a little behind the fashions and then guy whos attired in the most popular clothing of the day.

Clint

 

[icecold]

Ahh, i remember this thread, but somehow missed it this time around. Interesting thoughts and info there.
It seems that black is legit, which is a huge relief because it somewhat reduces the urge to get more brown leather jackets

 

[icecold]

^^
awesome photo. Obviously, i want to be this guy when I get old. down to the properly attired grandson and the massive steel automobilelol

 

[reetpleat]

A simple question can be answered pretty quickly. But a discussion of the sartorial meaning and historic use of leather, now there is a discussion.

A few thoughts. Firstly, i think the cost of dying black versus brown might be why brown seems more common in the thirties.

As far as motorcyclists go, black may have been a more popular choice because it is cool, and also because it would show grease and oil stains less. Remember, these old bikes required a lot of road side maintenance.

After the war, many young men were disaffected, as well as surely suffering from "battle fatigue" much as their fathers came home with "shell shock." Some of them did not assimilate and took to the road on motorcycles. They grew their hair long, greased back, wore iron crosses which were very offensive to ww1 and 2 vets. And drank a lot, not to mention those who had become addicted to morphine and probably had a lot to do with the rise of opiate use after the war in underground and jazz and beat culture.

As far as homosexual culture, as early as the fifties, and perhaps before, gay subculture in large cities were having fun playing with male archetypes including the motorcyclist. A short story by a san francisco author from the late fifties involves some gay men, and references to some men wearing sailor uniforms and a few dressed as bikers. Of course the high water mark might well be the village people. Although I don't recall native american being a "look" in the gay culture. these days, the leather look has become more of a bondage stereotype, but there is still a large leather daddy subculture that can be traced back to the adoption of the macho motorcyclist imagery by gay subculture. Fascinating. of course, while funny, it would be very unlikely for a preacher to accuse a leather clad biker of dressing like a homosexual. these days, it could happen I suppose, but the harley crowd seems to have held on to the leather imagery. Ironic that the look is equally popular amongst tough bikers and gay men.

 

[cbrunt]

I reference to an earlier mention of black being the "bad boy" look, this leads to an interesting little bit.

Dot Robinson was the founder of The Motor Maids which was a famous all-gilr motorcycle club, started in the 1930s. Anyway, fast forward to the debut of the (in)famous movie, The Wild One. She is famous for hating that movie and swearing from then on never to wear black leather after "that awful movie".

She wore pink leather jackets for years after.

Yes, again motorcycle specific but not without relevance to the general trend in leather jackets in America.

 

[Flitcraft]

Thought provoking, but...

not convinced everyone who wore their flight jacket after combat service was necessarily suffering from PTSD. My former boss was a fighter pilot in Korea and often wore his old leather flight jacket when I worked for him. Very patrician gentleman with a very firm grasp on reality.
Just my observation...

 

[reetpleat]

I don't think anyone said that. The idea seems to be that many men had ptsd and that is why they did not fit back into post war society, sometimes becoming bikers. Another poster suggested that in the fifties, some people saw people who wore old army stuff as either poseurs, stuck in the past, or too poor to buy new clothes. Can't speak to that, but it makes sense. although something like a leather jacket, especially a pilot's jacket, would likely be respected. I imagine most pilots were officers and likely went on to professional careers, so would only wear their jackets on the weekend or for hunting etc.

 

[reetpleat]

I reference to an earlier mention of black being the "bad boy" look, this leads to an interesting little bit.

Dot Robinson was the founder of The Motor Maids which was a famous all-gilr motorcycle club, started in the 1930s. Anyway, fast forward to the debut of the (in)famous movie, The Wild One. She is famous for hating that movie and swearing from then on never to wear black leather after "that awful movie".

She wore pink leather jackets for years after.

Yes, again motorcycle specific but not without relevance to the general trend in leather jackets in America.

Was that who the Happy Days character, pinky tuskedereo was based on, or perhaps the pink ladies in grease?

 

[Fatdutchman]

My Sears reprint page from 1937 (I think, it's not in front of me) shows leather jackets (ALL of them horsehide) in either black or "mahogany". I've seen photos of both black and brown old jackets. Probably about equal.

Personally, I just don't like black leather. Mine must be brown.

 

[icecold]

My Sears reprint page from 1937 (I think, it's not in front of me) shows leather jackets (ALL of them horsehide) in either black or "mahogany". I've seen photos of both black and brown old jackets. Probably about equal.

Personally, I just don't like black leather. Mine must be brown.

\Good for you that you know (the one in the avatar looks great!) i'm still in the process of deciding, just so I void stocking up on too many BOTH black and brown jackets :eusa_doh: lol
Since I have brown-ish hair, i guess black should be my choice

 

[reetpleat]

For a definitive answer, I will ask my friend who works for one of the largest specialty vintage export dealers. he would know a lot about what is still out there. Unless for some reason, one was preserved less than the other, it should give us a pretty good answer.

 

[BigSleep]

Great Thread

Dont forget that a leather jacket wasnt always a sign of upper class cool.
A leather jacket used to be a laborer's jacket.
Dock workers, truck drivers etc.
It was a utilitarian garment.
Like a blacksmith's apron.
I believe it is relatively recent in history that it became something slick and cool in New-York-black.
I assume a brown coat might have hide the scars of work more easily.
I have a black leather motorcycle jacket that has some scrapes I got the hard way and they really show up on the black. Not so much on some brown jacket I own.
...but I could be wrong about everything I just wrote.

 

[Ugarte]

Just contributing my meager experience to a surprisingly interesting thread. WARNING: More than you wanted to know about me ahead.

I graduated from high school in 1980. Prior to that, I rode motorcycles for transportation (a '74 Honda CB100 then an older CB350) from the age of 13 until about age 15 when I could secure a driver's license and a 1965 Mustang powered by a 200 inch straight six. The engine looked and ran like a Singer sewing machine. At any rate, while I was riding I wore a nylon parka -- think N3-B -- until I went down in '76 and melted the left sleeve and patch of skin on my left arm.

To replace the coat, I requested a leather motorcycle jacket. My parents were appalled at the idea of a black leather jacket. No doubt they were envisioning the cut and colors of a radical outlaw biker gang like the Booze Fighters or Hell's Angels. The lore about the traditional black leather MC jacket involved stories about thugs running motorcycle-mounted policemen off interchanges in larger cities to acquire such a jacket. That would make you a bad person. My parents did not want me to hold myself out as some sort of hoodlum. I was basically a good kid, but the 'rents just didn't trust me.

But my father, who had ridden a Harley '74 a bit in his youth allowed me a brown leather jacket from the Sears catalog -- think bad G-1 copy. I've still got it hanging in my closet and the knit cuffs need replacement desperately. I can't wear a 44 anymore, but my son is rapidly getting to be that size. As an adult, I picked up a fairly well worn and trendy black MC jacket in the Schott Perfecto style. I outgrew it and recently inherited a virtually new and very warm size 48 MC jacket from none other than my father.

But to gravitate back to the brown vs. black nature of this thread, I think a lot of older jackets were quite possibly black to begin with, but the nature of the material leads some old and well-worn pieces of black leather to wear to a brown.

Of course, this depends on a number of factors including the conditions to which the piece is exposed, the nature of the leather, how it was tanned, as well as things that don't occur to me off the top of my head right now. I know that historically, the tree bark used to tan the leather had a direct bearing on color appearance -- Oak tanned leather could hold a slick black finish for some time, whereas Hemlock tanned leather would very quickly wear to a more natural brown shade.

I also think that dying (perhaps more accurately "staining") leather to a rich dark brown, darker than say russet, tends to present a color that is easily mistaken for black. For years I thought the jacket worn by Indiana Jones was black. According to everything I have read about it since, it is officially brown. I have also read somewhere on this forum that the black leather trench coats sported by the Gestapo in WWII were in fact, dark brown for the most part.

So I suspect there may be some dark leather out there that was actually a very black shade of brown.

Sorry to burn up so much drive space with this long-winded and probably not that interesting a post, but there it is.


Mark
.

 

[feltfan]

But to gravitate back to the brown vs. black nature of this thread, I think a lot of older jackets were quite possibly black to begin with, but the nature of the material leads some old and well-worn pieces of black leather to wear to a brown.

Enjoyed the post, but I'm doubting your point.
People have been dyeing leather black for a very long
time. Older items are still black. But more to the point,
there would be portions of the leather that would still
appear black, on the interior or near the seams.

Old black leather jackets do show patches of grey. But
I've never seen one with brown patches. I will grant you
that leather is tanned in different ways in different parts
of the world, so anything is possible.

 

[Edward]

Although I don't recall native american being a "look" in the gay culture.

Ironically, he was the only one who was actually gay.