vintage vs. new..

[Guttersnipe]

Not trying to stir the pot here, but I've read on this forum (and elsewhere) on a number of occasions the statement that "vintage hats are of better quality than new hats".. . . . . .

I can think of a specific example where I am more of an expert, which is Martin Guitars.. Yes, today's finest Martins aren't as nice as a pre-war D45 or D28, but that's because those were made with now impossible to get grades of Mahogany, Spruce, and Rosewood..

. . . . not as good as they used to be? or is manufacturing today not as good?

give me details, I'm genuinely interested in knowing.

What came to my mind when you used vintage vs. modern guitars as an example is condition. When you play new Gibson J-45's they're all pretty much the same caliber. With prewar and 40's Gibsons though, you get more of a mixed bag - some are amazing beyond belief while others are total dogs. Time (and previous owners) can sometimes be less then kind precious old things.

Bringing it back more into the Golden Era realm - and what I believe a lot already stated here - I've usually found that modern productions items or reproduction of vintage items don't hold a candle to the originals, and the ones that do tend to cost more then the real McCoy in good condition.

 

[GWD]

Just my two cents as to why vintage hats are still relatively inexpensive.

I think there is a certain "stigma" to buying a used hat. I have friends that think I'm crazy for buying a used hat and actually wear it. I sanitize my hats like I'm sure everyone here does but my friends can't get their heads around it. They have no problem going to the local hat store and dropping a few hundred bucks for a new hat.

I'm sure they aren't the only people interested in hats that feel the same way.

 

[MD11]

Just my two cents as to why vintage hats are still relatively inexpensive.

I think there is a certain "stigma" to buying a used hat. I have friends that think I'm crazy for buying a used hat and actually wear it. I sanitize my hats like I'm sure everyone here does but my friends can't get their heads around it. They have no problem going to the local hat store and dropping a few hundred bucks for a new hat.

I'm sure they aren't the only people interested in hats that feel the same way.

Good point GWD, I admit I feel that way myself.. I think if I bought a vintage hat, I might have the band replaced on it or something (assuming that's not sacrilege )

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Welcome to the Lounge, MD11.

I'm no hatter either so no technical info from me, just the way I feel about new vs. old.

To me, with hats, as with cars, leather bound books, furniture and many other things the "goodness" of the product is not exclusively in it's component parts or processes. Metal is still metal and leather is still leather and some wood is still in use as it was a century or two ago, and yes, beaver is still beaver. For me it isn't always whether or not their materials were different "back then" or whether they had special techniques or not; it's sometimes all about the vibe that a fine old item acquires through decades or more of existence.

I, for one, even like some of the imperfections that come with some of the vintage scores I make. These are the 'real McCoys' from the actual era, not modern (albeit well-made) reproductions. There's a "more than the sum of it's parts" afterglow, a preciousness, about a 60 or 70 year old hat which can't be quantified under any microscope.

 

[Rick Blaine]

...ok

I'm also a bit skeptical about claims like this. I work in a field that is rife with internet "net mind" urban legends. A telltale fingerprint of such stories is too-much-information details like this -- "mercuric oxides," "carroting." Van Brunvand labels this as "preempting objections," excess detail added unconsciously to friend-of-a-friend stories passed from person to person in folklore transmission.

I am simply passing on what I have heard & read, kabuto. Please feel free to substantiate or refute such statements as you see fit, I am here to learn.

 

[HamletJSD]

I guess I was originally getting to the question. "money being no object" are hats today inferior?

I have asked this question before and the best answer is, "you get what you pay for." It seems to be the opinion of most that if you're willing to buy custom from Art, Adventurbilt, etc., you're going to get a great hat with materials, craftsmanship and care similar to those vintage lids.

That being said, a modern Akubra, or even Stetson, is a good hat. If you aren't ready to spend for custom, any hat you can afford and that you like is the right hat for you. You may get more bang for your buck looking for the vintage Stetson over the modern one (not to mention the thrill of the hunt), but whatever hat you can get your hands on and enjoy is preferable to burnt ears and ballcaps.

 

[MississippiLong]

vintage v. modern is an unfair battle. Vintage hats have stood the test of time. (some did, others fell by the wayside) Modern hats haven't had a chance to survive yet, thats why they are modern. in 60 years the hats of the day (if there are any) will be compared to our Art's and AB's and Akubra's.

We can't judge which is "inferior" because we're missing a crucial factor in modern hats..TIME. Not comparing apples and oranges, but a Freshman and a Senior.

 

[tonyb]

There's something a bit jarring in a few of the postings in this thread. Wish it weren't that way.

I can't think of a point raised that hasn't been raised (and chewed over) many times before. Yes, they made some less-than-stellar stuff back in the "Golden Era." And yes, it's hard to quantify, let alone test for, just exactly what makes those finer vintage hats superior to most of what's available in new hats today. And yes again, you can indeed buy a brand-spankin'-new lid that many well-informed hat people would deem the equal to what was made 60 or 70 years ago, provided you deal with the right people. You can, sadly, also spend a whole lot of dough and come away with a so-so (at best) hat.

However ... once people have bought, sold, handled or otherwise gotten acquainted with enough hats, their opinions count for something. And many (most, I think it's safe to say) would opine that vintage is generally superior.

Modern hats come in quality levels too, of course. But IN GENERAL (please note the emphasis), the mass-produced new hats available today are no match for what was made in the first half of the last century. It's not just the felt, either, although that's certainly a part of it. It's the quality (or lack thereof) in the sweatbands and ribbons and such. It shows up in little ways, such as glued-in liners. And it shows up in big ways, such as a $250 (or more) hat that tapers badly once it's gotten rained on a time or two. (Please, don't ask me to reminisce much on that final point, because doing so hurts my parsimonious soul. But if you take anything of practical value away from this discussion, it might be to avoid most of what a storied old Italian brand produces these days. Way too much dough for what you get. But, you know, that's just an opinion.)

 

[AlanC]

Another thing: the fur treatment is not the only variable here. The vintage hats are also old, decades old. Does that not have an effect on the felt? There's an apples and oranges for you.

Ta da:

Third, hats have a "lifespan" in terms of the felting process, meaning it will continue to felt itself for many years. After a certain amount of time ( unknown to me) the felt stops the felting process and "dies". Hats made today are at the beginning of that process. Thus, some compare it "apples to oranges" and have a valid point.

 

[tonyb]

And one other thing ...

We have a few knowledgeable folks here who are happy to argue FOR the quality of modern Stetsons, for instance, and other brands. I don't dispute any of that, but I don't necessarily share their experience, either. I've had too much go bad with modern factory-made hats not to be leery.

But then, I have seen a few new hats, Stetsons included, that seem better than what they were making a few years ago. And that Italian brand? Well, they aren't ALL bad. Some seem to hold up okay. Spotty, spotty.

 

[epic610]

Probably...

most of us will end up owning both ....new and vintage.

but for every day wear a lot of the modern, new hats are perfectly acceptable. we have a number of excellent vendors on this forum. their products are good and reasonably priced. and as the prices of the better vintage hats continues to go up, the price advantage over new ones diminishes.

another argument is that by only buying vintage, you lose leverage with the hat makers and are not in a position to influence relative levels of quality. if we want manufacturers to make better quality hats, we have to demonstrate our willingness to buy them.

 

[feltfan]

Go away if you've got nothing to contribute please...

I don't think this sort of comment contributes much.

If you're going back and reading the old threads and the FAQs,
by now you must know that everything said here has been
said before. I don't think it's too much to expect that new
contributors read the FAQ- that's their purpose.

When someone new comes across this forum what he or she
is really coming across is an archive. Yes, the current discussions
can be as lively and informative as the old ones. But after years
of research, speculation, discussion, and posted photographs,
there is more to mine here than in most online discussion fora.
If you were to drop in to an Irish pub, lean over to the next guy
and say, 'God save the Queen and Oliver Cromwell!' ...

All that said, since it hasn't been pointed out here
(though it has been pointed out elsewhere), the use
of mercury in carroting ended so long ago that most
of the hats we call vintage do not benefit from the process.
What makes them great is the skill, aesthetic, variety, and, as has
been pointed out here, the economy of scale, that existed
up until perhaps the 50s. And remember that for the most part
we are discussing factory/production hats. Comparing yesterday's
factory hat to today's factory hat. What Art makes today and
what Stetson makes today are not really comparable.

 

[jamespowers]

What makes the difference if you hold materials constant and factory versus custom constant is simply knowledge. Decades ago, ALL men wore hats (still should actually ) and bought them by the millions per year. Therefore, there were hundreds and thousands of hatters with knowledge on WHAT makes a great hat and HOW to make a great hat. These hatters had various levels of expertise but they were out there and some were third and fourth generation hatters. They built on the knowledge for years and years.
Now, the demand for hats is very confined to a specific group of aficianados such as us. Therefore, there are very few hatters out there with the kind of experience it takes to make a great hat (like Art). It can take decades to develop this knowledge and if you don't have it then the best materials available to work with still come out looking like junk. You can easily see this when you look at a modern Stetson versus a vintage Stetson. Felt aside, there is a difference in the level of workmanship involved. The stitching isn't the same. The way the ribbon is attached is different. The way the sweatband is attached is different. The water resistance is different and the way the color holds up to the elements is different. All of this is attributable to knowledge and how to make a great hat with the materials given you.

 

[jamespowers]

What makes them great is the skill, aesthetic, variety, and, as has been pointed out here, the economy of scale, that existed
up until perhaps the 50s. And remember that for the most part
we are discussing factory/production hats. Comparing yesterday's
factory hat to today's factory hat. What Art makes today and
what Stetson makes today are not really comparable.

I saw this after I made my post but it is all very important as well.

 

[Undertow]

I've been fortunate enough to handle a number of vintage hats over the years, and about the same number of modern hats. The difference I've seen can be equated to the following: mass-production.

Like others have pointed out, vintage hats could be a mixed bag. But for the most part, the skill imparted and the careful craftsmanship outweighs the consistency of the mass-produced modern hats. Stitched liners and lush, soft sweat bands are just two examples. Most of the modern hats I've handled (excluding Biltmores), had pretty cheesy sweats and glued liners. I have NOT had a chance to handle Akubras, and I've heard alot of good things about them.

One thing I always notice with older hats is the felt is softer, lighter and more pliable. I don't think I own a single modern hat that is as soft and pliable as my vintage Stetson or Dobbs.

 

[Alan-Eby]

Idea

Maybe the answer lies in "Survival of the Fittest" maybe the reason Vintage hats are generally better is the ones left are the ones that made it. I'm sure there were a bunch of poorly made hats on the market, but the didn't hold up and were thrown away.
I'm rather new myself, and have asked some newbie questions but found that had I taken the time to search through all the threads in the past my questions would have been answered already, but I have to agree that its not exactly easy to find certain specific questions.
I thank all those who posted links that answered my questions and didn't berate my newbieness (is that a word?)

 

[Richard Warren]

One thing that I have noticed is that, even though hand made items in the past may have been generally better than machine made produced now, that does not mean that things made by hand now are better than things made by machine now.

A lot of craftsmanship has been lost.

 

[danofarlington]

But if you take anything of practical value away from this discussion, it might be to avoid most of what a storied old Italian brand produces these days. Way too much dough for what you get. But, you know, that's just an opinion.)

No doubt you are right on the quality and craftsmanship of the hat itself, as you are a hatmaker and know a great deal about them. But why I am still a customer of Borsalino is the styling. They have great styling in their overall look and especially shape of the crown that I don't see surpassed by other hatmakers. I am reminded of that when I have to re-block the crown of a Borsalino hat. Yes, companies have similar blocks, but similar isn't Borsalino. Hat makers may be able to re-shape a Borsalino crown, but again it isn't Borsalino. So I am paying for a really stylish hat of the kind I like. For this reason Borsalino is the company that gets my new-hat money (apart from custom hatmakers) and not Stetson or anybody else so far. I'm going to try a new hat or two from the RMR website, and the Hornet Hats website, which are much less expensive, and see how they do. But style is the reason that I personally have bought Borsalino hats.

 

[BanjoMerlin]

I've been fortunate enough to handle a number of vintage hats over the years, and about the same number of modern hats. The difference I've seen can be equated to the following: mass-production.

Like others have pointed out, vintage hats could be a mixed bag. But for the most part, the skill imparted and the careful craftsmanship outweighs the consistency of the mass-produced modern hats. Stitched liners and lush, soft sweat bands are just two examples. Most of the modern hats I've handled (excluding Biltmores), had pretty cheesy sweats and glued liners. I have NOT had a chance to handle Akubras, and I've heard alot of good things about them.

One thing I always notice with older hats is the felt is softer, lighter and more pliable. I don't think I own a single modern hat that is as soft and pliable as my vintage Stetson or Dobbs.

Most of the vintage hats around today (Stetson, Dobbs and many others) were made in factories in what would pass for an assembly line process - Mass Production. The quality differences are not due to Mass Production but to concious efforts to control production costs.

 

[dwebber18]

I'll agree that the Borso's are some of the best looking new hats I've seen. I like the custom hat route better, but there is definitely something to be said for walking into a store and picking up a hat you're happy with and having it right them. I will also agree that the vintage hats that are still in existence are nicer than the majority of currently available hats. I had the pleasure of handling semi-custom, Borso, new Stetson and some vintage hats all within a short time period. I was saddened with the lack of craftsmanship and lack of quality used in the complete product. Even though the store had them on sale for $60-$75 new I couldn't justify that price as the fit seemed off, the sweatbands and hats were very hard and stiff and seemed very contrived. Even though the Borso I tried was $325 and the semi-customs were $225 they were a much better value than the current Stetsons. I would say find a vintage hat, or get a Borso or a semi custom for a hat you can have right away, or get a custom hat from one of our resident artisans and you will be much happier than a cheaper alternative.