Vintage vs. Late Model

[ronin]

I'm one of the big headed guys. There is simply not a good selection of size 7-5/8 to 7-3/4 vintage hats, nor at reasonable prices. I wear new.

Frankly, I'm still waiting for my newer fur felt Stetsons to melt in the rain, after so much disparagement that I've read recently. In fact, I took one of the slightly flawed ebay hats I recently bought, and made a point of going on hikes in steady downpours. I was expecting it to taper to a sharp point, and for the sweatband to fall out, and for the water to leak through. Nothing of the kind.

The crushable wool fedoras you get new for $38 are great to wear in the worst winter weather, and to bring on airplanes. They look better than ball caps, keep your head warm, and you don't have to pamper them- quite the opposite.

Take dogmatic claims with a grain of salt, including this one. But yeah, the Borsalino Traveler is crazy overpriced for what you get.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

I cut down a couple cowboy hats recently, sorry no pics yet. A fine job if I say so. I recomend it to anyone, take the plunge.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Now here's my "theory" on why vintage ones don't, they have sat around for 40 to 50 years in their present shape in someone's closet. During all that time, decades, they eventually loose their memory of a cone shape and the shape they sat in for the last 40 to 50 years becomes fixed. Hence when they get wet they don't revert or shrink back to a cone shape again.

I have thought of that before as well, though there are too many vintage hats that are drooping and worn though still untapered. There has to be a missing technique, or something like the self welted edge that is too costly or too hard to reproduce.

We have also seen that all beaver and nutria mixes are not the answer to fight off taper. So far Zohar has had that new Optimo with the preblocking process for a while now and I hope to get a accessment of how it has taken the elements and whether or not it has tapered.

 

[jamespowers]

Frankly, I'm still waiting for my newer fur felt Stetsons to melt in the rain, after so much disparagement that I've read recently. In fact, I took one of the slightly flawed ebay hats I recently bought, and made a point of going on hikes in steady downpours. I was expecting it to taper to a sharp point, and for the sweatband to fall out, and for the water to leak through. Nothing of the kind.

How long have you had it? What color is it? The last Stetson I came into contact with was worn for two years. It was black and had faded to an odd smoggy color. The crown had tapered and the liner was a mess. This was not a hat that was worn every day in snow and rain either. It never snows here and rains seldomly. I wouldn't say it taperd to a sharp point but it tapered. The hat I mentioned that won't hold water is the Borsalino not the Stetson. I can at least say that much for the Stetson. The hat that might melt in the rain is a Shantung or some other paper "straw" hat.
I am glad you had a better experience and maybe Stetson is learning something but I doubt it. They are still made the same way. If you want a hat that will last you about two years then by all means buy a stetson. You get what you pay for. The same goes for wool. If you like it, by all means use them.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Nathan Flowers]

Still no taper on the all beaver Optimo that was pre-blocked. I have worn the hell out of it, and it badly needs to be cleaned, and the brim re-flanged, but the crown is still totally untapered. Pictures coming soon.

 

[Sin Khan]

This is a quote that i pulled from thehatsite.com web site, i think this is the primary reason why vintage bever hats are better than ones made today. It describes two major diferences between how hats were made and the differences between rabbit fur and bever fur.

The first one being the murcury treatment, the second being that rabbit fur is not truely suited for making hats.

The initial stage in the hat making process would be the plucking of the coarse guard hairs from the beaver pelt, which was then brushed, with a solution of nitrate of mercury.

This would raise the scales on the fur shafts so that they would become firmly locked together. This process became known as "carotting" and if carried out in a poorly ventilated room, the mercury fumes could damage the brain, hence the expression "mad as a hatter". The fibres would then be cut from the skin and placed on a bench in a workroom known as the "hurdle". Over the bench would be suspended a hatter's bow, very much like an oversized violin bow and the fibres responded to the vibrations of the bow which was controlled by the craftsmen, separating themselves and becoming evenly distributed until they had formed into a thick but loosely structured mat of material known as the "batt". Several batts would then be shaped into a cone and reduced in size by boiling and then rolled to create a firm dense felt. The hood would then be sent onto the hatter who would mould it to the required shape and then line and finish it.

Hats made from Beaver felt were to see a marked decline in the mid 1800s and gradually became replaced by the silk hat, followed by fur felt hats and wool felt hats.

Rabbit / Hare

Specific breeds of rabbit are preferred with the majority of fur being produced in Belgium. Only the under-fur of the animals is used, as only this fur is suitable for the matting process involved in felt making. The fur, which is removed from the rabbit, is bagged according to the grade of fur and undergoes various mixing refining processes before it is ready to be made into a hood. The fur is then blown, a process which enables the removal of any dirt and clotted fur. The actual process of hat making can now commence.

 

[Sin Khan]

I've also found some places that give us hope in the future of hats. Here is one that describes a unique rabbit called a rex rabbit, that has a recessive trait that makes its fur coat almost nonexistent with guard hairs. Because of this, the undercoat (part used for hats) is much thicker than a normal rabbit. Raised in colder climaets these rabbits produce a dense fur undercoat.

They have been breeded since the 70's and may be great for cheaper new hats that finally stand close to a well made beaver hat. Especially since hatters have had to learn many new things in order to make the quality of hats that they now make. Considering that most hatters have had to make due with low quality rabbit fur for some time, and make the best of it, this much better rabbit coat may make a great hat.

Here is the site http://www.siliconinvestor.com/readmsg.aspx?msgid=19737064

This site http://www.furcommission.com/Biology/furtypes.html
States a break down of fur quality and says that nutria fur has a quality that is comparable to beaver. It makes me wonder if a nutria hat, if made correctly, will wear just as well as a vintage beaver hat.

Thanks

 

[Veronica Parra]

Vintage 1932 hats on vintage 1932 guys.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

My attitude is to try and keep the independant vendors like Steve Delk and Art Fawcett in buisness for as long and as often as possible. If you frequent Optimo and Akubra, continue to do so as well.

There are a finite number of vintage hats out there, and you'll have people who will have them reblocked and modified to the point where only the felt body is original and the liner and the sweat band are replaced. Not saying that that's bad, I wouldn't hesitate to do that if I thought it needed it, but as the years go by, there are fewer and fewer authentic fedoras to choose from.

If this style is going to continue, we need to keep the vendors we have in buisness. And speaking of fedoras that hold up in the rain: With Two Weeks of record rain fall, my Adventurebilt is doing very well.

 

[ronin]

How long have you had it? What color is it? The last Stetson I came into contact with was worn for two years. It was black and had faded to an odd smoggy color. The crown had tapered and the liner was a mess. This was not a hat that was worn every day in snow and rain either.

J

I've had a few newer Stetsons, but the one I mentioned is a grey ("caribou") "project" hat- I want to destructively test it by wearing it normally in bad conditions. I'll report back!

Although we look with respect at vintage hats, the vintage guys that wore them in the day just looked at them as accessories. The guy wore the hat, not vv. If I compare it to some modern accessory- say a decent pair of dress shoes, I would expect those shoes to last maybe a couple years of daily wear, assuming I didnt wear them in the snow and mud or other extremes. So for about the same price of a nice pair of new shoes, I'd expect a Stetson to last at least as long.

Now I can get a very expensive pair of shoes that I would expect to last years longer. Likewise with a very expensive hat.

Anyhow, let me have fun seeing what this $20 new mid/top of line Stetson can handle.

 

[jamespowers]

Anyhow, let me have fun seeing what this $20 new mid/top of line Stetson can handle.

Have at it and let us know how it turns out. :beer:

Regards to all,

J

 

[ronin]

I've had a few newer Stetsons, but the one I mentioned is a grey ("caribou") "project" hat- I want to destructively test it by wearing it normally in bad conditions. I'll report back!

Anyhow, let me have fun seeing what this $20 new mid/top of line Stetson can handle.

Well, it's been almost six months, and I've deliberately worn this particular hat in heavy rains and during several midwest snowfalls this winter. Goal was to see what it had in it.

This is not the current highest-grade Stetson; in fact, it is a couple grades down from the top. But:
Did not leak
Crown did not taper
Brim did not droop
Did its job shedding the weather fine
Does not seem to be any discoloration of the felt, lining, or ribbon.

What do I notice differently? The dents- side and top- are a little less defined, with the edges softening. Seems to me like normal wear and tear, and addressable if I cared to.

If I had worn a mid-lower grade pair of decent leather shoes in the same conditions I would also expect some wear and tear.

I probably should have started taking photos at each stage. I will continue to wear it and report. But so far seems suited to its purpose and station just fine.

 

[Not-Bogart13]

What model?

Ronin,

Is this impressive hat a dress fedora, or a western hat? I hear the westerns are much more durable. I'd be interested to know because my Stetson Downs does not like wet weather!
NB

 

[Fedora]

The bodies are aslo being stetched out more today

I agree 100 per cent. I think there are two reason for modern felt tapering faster than vintage felt. It has nothing to do with pre-blocking. A pre-blocked hat is how you get them from the factory, or you can get them as raw cones and you do the pre-blocking. That would not affect any future taper IMHO. New felt is alive. Old, 50 year old felt is dead. It does not respond to the elements the way a live felt does. The other factor is the size of new modern dress bodies. They are small. So, you have to stretch the felt more to get a vintage, tall crowned look. The more you have to stretch a felt, any felt, vintage or new, the quicker it will shrink and taper. One thing that the Portugal felt has going for it, that is, the higher quality stuff they produce and not the rabbit blends, is the size of the body that you can get. They sell a B crown body, that is used for short crowned hats, up to say 4 3/4 open crown. Now, if you used this body to make a tall vintage styled hat, it would taper later on, at a faster rate. But, Portugal also offers a "C" crown body. This body is so large that for a given size, very little stretching is done. There is no doubt a hat made from this sized body, with a good fur, would approach the vintage ones in "time to taper".


I have seen many vintage hats, and felts. I used to be impressed by them, but not so much anymore. Much of that felt, like the Royal lines, etc, were nothing special. You can buy better felt today, 2006. Now, some of the vintage felt was indeed very fine felt. But, most had a fairly high beaver content. The mercury treated rabbit fur hats were much different than modern rabbit, due to the mercury giving the hat a particular feel. I think the mercury felted hats were better, overall. I am particularly fond of the vintage Cavanaugh felt, as most of what I have seen was a very fine felt, along with the Knoxes and high x vintage Stetsons. But, I have seen some pretty course and mediocre vintage felt too. Nothing like the low quality felt of today, but still, not that great in the realm of felt. Fedora

 

[MattC]

You are right about variation in vinatage quality

Low range vintage hats could be coarse are carboard like. Not a few vintage hats were treated with chemicals to make them water repellent. The manufacturers did that because on their own, the felts were not good enough to hold off a good dousing.

I think there are a couple of reasons why folks here tend to think vintage is always high quality. First, even the lower rung vintage hats tended to be better than today's lowest rung. Even an old Creighton won't shrink or run. Second is that it is really difficult to find a new hat with anything approaching the quality of the better vintage hats, unless you get a custom made hat, or the very top Borsalino (and not the Borso beaver hat, which is kind of sad--and I don't think even the best Borsos come up to custom hats or the better vintages).

But the truth is that old hats, like new ones, covered a wide quality range. It just started higher 50 years ago, and ended higher than can be found except in the rarest custom hats now.

 

[tonyb]

Great thread, y'all. As both fedoralover and Fedora Steve observed, it seems likely that a hat that has been around for 50 or 60 (or more) years grows accustomed to its shape, and is likely to maintain it. This notion of "live" vs. "dead" felt hadn't occurred to me before, but I think there's something to it.
Now, let me run this by you: I strongly suspect that the reason so many of the surviving "vintage" hats remain in such nice condition is because they saw very little if any use for several decades, until they got discovered in the attic and sent to the secondhand store or that infamous online auction site. The hats that Grandpa wore until they got kinda shabby looking got tossed in the trash back in 1962, about the time that hats had fallen out of style.
I wouldn't dispute that old hats are superior to the run of what can be bought new today. My own experience, as the keeper of a dozen or more vintage hats and 30-some newer ones, confirms this. But my quite limited experience also confirms what Fedora Steve says about new, all-beaver felt custom hats. My new custom (thanks, Art) is easily the equal, and perhaps the better, of any of my old lids. And the newer factory-made ones aren't even close.
Still, even the good stuff will eventually succumb to the ravages of regular use. I have a well-used old Dobbs--a hat whose sweatband bears the label of a local store that went under more than 50 years ago, or so I've been told--that shows the signs of long-term use. It is quite tapered and a tad discolored. I keep it in anticipation of sending if off for a proper renovation, seeing how the felt and the lining and the sweatband and the ribbon and the brim-edge binding all remain in solid condition. I never wear it, because I have no shortage of better looking hats, but it reminds me never to let my fine old hats fall into such condition. Nope, I wouldn't do that. I wear 'em, for sure, but only in dry weather. And then they get a light brushing and put back in their boxes.

 

[jamespowers]

You don't wear them in the rain? That is the environment where they shine. They don't shrink, the color doesn't run and your head doesn't get wet. They are spectacular for that. Don't try that with a modern off the rack hat. You'll end up with hat that your dog can wear.
I can categorically say that I have never, ever, ever had a vintage hat get ruined by rain. In fact, I think it has made some better. Then again, what do I know? I only have about 150 hats.

Regards to all,

J

 

[tonyb]

Far be it from me to dispute your wise counsel, JP. But I really want to keep my precious, irreplaceable old lids in fine condition, and I have plenty of newer, replaceable ones to wear out. And I also have an umbrella, just in case the weatherman is wrong.

 

[jamespowers]

Far be it from me to dispute your wise counsel, JP. But I really want to keep my precious, irreplaceable old lids in fine condition, and I have plenty of newer, replaceable ones to wear out. And I also have an umbrella, just in case the weatherman is wrong.

Ok, ok. You can save them as long as you want. The only thing about that is the new ones just aren't the same. :fedora: I suppose I have a few more to spread the wear around. I just can't understand having an umbrella and a hat.
So where are some pictures of these hats? New and vintage. We can compare them.

Regards,

J

 

[tonyb]

Ok, ok. You can save them as long as you want. The only thing about that is the new ones just aren't the same. :fedora: I suppose I have a few more to spread the wear around. I just can't understand having an umbrella and a hat.
So where are some pictures of these hats? New and vintage. We can compare them.

Regards,

J

I wasn't always so (as my younger associates put it) "retentive."
I do have a couple of vintage beaters I don't baby so much. And I wore my custom hat and my best coat, sans umbrella, on the foulest day of the year. Both came through it fine.
Yes, fur-felt hats were made to protect the wearer from the elements. Still, I wanna cry when I think of a couple of great old hats I bought cheap 25 or 30 years ago and the treatment I subjected them to.