vintage vs. custom

[Garrett]

When will this lounge stop using JFK as a hat reference? He really wasn't a hat guy...

 

[Tomasso]

When will this lounge stop using JFK as a hat reference?

We were just having some fun, Sister....

 

[Garrett]

:nono:

 

[gtdean48]

Personally, I haven't encountered a vintage hat that was any better than a high quality modern one. Maybe I've been unlucky. But I've tried enough that I finally gave up. Hey, somebody has to uphold the minority position, huh?

It takes handling a vintage Knox 20, pre-factory move Borsalino, Sears Golden Pilgrim, Superior Quality Penney's Marathon & at least a 1950's Royal Deluxe or 3X Stetson to get the feel for what the vintage buzz is all about. These in true pristine condition at that. I have handled some nice Royal Stetson grade vintage ones in great condition that are on par with custom made.
The closest modern felt that I think approaches 1950s vintage Borsalino is the featherweight Art uses from Winchester. JMHO

 

[rlk]

The full range from crap to extraordinary is available in both Vintage and Custom. Vintage has a potentially enormous and superior range, but can you actually find a particular style in the size and color you need? They arrive as a fully integrated unit(felt, ribbon, dimensions etc.) when considered as fixed rather than a body to adjust as you please. If you are creative(or the Hatter is), Custom has a tremendous range of possibilities with far more variables for an individual hat where you can adjust the colors,dimensions,block,ribbon and trim as well as have a fresh, properly fitted product. Some Vintage hats can never be precisely reproduced, while a Custom can be a unique product that is truly your own.

I'm with Billy--go for both!

Of course if you are a pinhead ,vintage possibilities are amazing and affordable--for the melonhead, rare and expensive.

 

[fmw]

It takes handling a vintage Knox 20, pre-factory move Borsalino, Sears Golden Pilgrim, Superior Quality Penney's Marathon & at least a 1950's Royal Deluxe or 3X Stetson to get the feel for what the vintage buzz is all about. These in true pristine condition at that. I have handled some nice Royal Stetson grade vintage ones in great condition that are on par with custom made.
The closest modern felt that I think approaches 1950s vintage Borsalino is the featherweight Art uses from Winchester. JMHO

I haven't been willing to buy those because they cost as much as new hats. I don't view that as a good value. I have a 60's Borsalino, a 60's Resistol and a Homburg of unknown vintage and manufacture but certainly older than the other two. The one thing I can say for sure is that the felt was very pliable because the shellac had worn out. If I look at them really objectively, that is the only meaningful difference when compared to my modern hats. I could stiffen them up and they would be quite comparable. Are these second tier vintage hats? I have no idea. The felt certainly isn't inferior to the modern hats. To me it is about the same save the difference in stiffness. So that's my experience. Given that experience, I stopped buying vintage hats. I'm not against the concept, it just doesn't appear to be for me.

 

[jaymag_87]

Size is a factor in this choice for me. I've been able to find a few vintage hats that fit, but at 7 7/8, custom is the only way to go.

My first reaction to the OP was "Custom, all the way". However, after reading throught the thread, I can see how going Vintage is an excellent choice, as well. The problem is, I'm like frussell. I have a pretty big bean. Not as big as frussell, just a 7 5/8, but still big. I've had a bit of trouble finding hats I'm looking for, here in Dallas. It might help if I knew where to look, but I digress.

...for the melonhead, rare and expensive.

Hey. I resemble that remark.

 

[gtdean48]

I haven't been willing to buy those because they cost as much as new hats. I don't view that as a good value. ...

The only time I have bought vintage approaching custom prices is a 7X CB & a 100 both in near pristine condition & the 100 includes the case. They definitely rival custom made quality.
The others I have didn't cost me half of what a custom does. They did cost about the same as an Akubra Campdraft or Stetson Roadmaster & surpass those in quality.
In my book, that is good value. I wear a 7 5/8 which means a slightly higher price point for vintage.

 

[John in Covina]

Vintage is either serendipity or a long hunt but it can be a great bargain too.

 

[Ande1964]

As gtdean stated in his own post, my comment above was specifically directed at "top of the line" vintage hats. I have found nothing modern that comes close to a fine Borsalino from the forties or fifties, a Stetson 3X Beaver from the same era, etc. The felt is superior. Part of that is the aging itself, but not all. The vintage hat-makers had a huge business model behind them that was capable of producing the very best fur felts.

That said, I encourage everyone to choose modern hats, both production and bespoke, over vintage. There are only so many great old hats out there in my size. I don't need the competition.

Anj

 

[bowlerman]

Ack! Once again I have purchased a vintage hat that isn't my size just because it looked like a good deal. I never know if I'm going to be able to stretch it enough or not... We'll see in a week or so, I guess, but I've probably wasted enough money on vintage "deals" by now that I could own a handful of custom hats I know will fit, don't smell yet, and that I'll be happy with.
I should stay far, far away from vintage-- you can have 'em!

 

[John in Covina]

Buying vintage hats through sites like Ebay are fraught with danger but can also be an opportunity for buyers. The problem is that so many sellers have little or no understanding of mens hats. People may because of their lack of knowledge totally misrepresent a hat which can mean they make it out to be better than it is or worse or just get the info really wrong. Sometimes there are gems hidden amongst the bad descriptions.

If you want an interesting discussion find the thread where the guys went to a place that makes fur felt hat bodies today and see what Art has to say about modern versus vintage.

 

[frussell]

Reading some of the above posts, I was reminded that if I stopped trying to score big size vintage lids, there wouldn't be the "trickle down" effect anymore that benefits the slightly smaller cranium owners that I have to re-sell to at lower prices when they don't fit. Newer factory hats are fine, but I'm not big on running colors and cheap "leather" sweatbands. I don't agree that vintage is superior, but as was previously posted, even our best custom makers have fewer felt suppliers to choose from. If guys like Art and TonyB and Graham had the same access to different felts that "Golden Era" hatters had, I have every confidence their works would hold up in comparison to the finest of what we now consider top-of-the-line vintage. They certainly have the skills needed. Frank

 

[fmw]

The only time I have bought vintage approaching custom prices is a 7X CB & a 100 both in near pristine condition & the 100 includes the case. They definitely rival custom made quality.
The others I have didn't cost me half of what a custom does. They did cost about the same as an Akubra Campdraft or Stetson Roadmaster & surpass those in quality.
In my book, that is good value. I wear a 7 5/8 which means a slightly higher price point for vintage.

Fair enough. When I was making the comparison in my head I was comparing vintage to modern production hats so my statement was misleading. Customs are certainly more expensive and that is the subject of the thread. My apologies.

 

[fmw]

Reading some of the above posts, I was reminded that if I stopped trying to score big size vintage lids, there wouldn't be the "trickle down" effect anymore that benefits the slightly smaller cranium owners that I have to re-sell to at lower prices when they don't fit. Newer factory hats are fine, but I'm not big on running colors and cheap "leather" sweatbands. I don't agree that vintage is superior, but as was previously posted, even our best custom makers have fewer felt suppliers to choose from. If guys like Art and TonyB and Graham had the same access to different felts that "Golden Era" hatters had, I have every confidence their works would hold up in comparison to the finest of what we now consider top-of-the-line vintage. They certainly have the skills needed. Frank

According to the custom hatters, modern felts are exactly the same as the vintage felts were when they were made. The difference apparently is time and I'm not sure how time affects felt. Rabbits and beavers are pretty much the same animals they were 75 years ago and the felt appears to made on the same equipment it was made with back then. I did read that thinner, lighter weight felts were more common in the old days but I don't think that is a quality issue.

 

[John in Covina]

According to the custom hatters, modern felts are exactly the same as the vintage felts were when they were made. The difference apparently is time and I'm not sure how time affects felt. Rabbits and beavers are pretty much the same animals they were 75 years ago and the felt appears to made on the same equipment it was made with back then. I did read that thinner, lighter weight felts were more common in the old days but I don't think that is a quality issue.

While there are some chemical processes that are different but the modern ones are supposed to be the equal of the past.

The difference as to time has to do with the felt becoming a tighter felt under certain conditions. It is akin to wool sweater shrinking after being washed and dried. If I recall correctly Art had written about some felt body tests that were conducted and they found that certain conditions (I think it was weathering) made for tighter felted bodies. These were considered as better to work with and producing a superior body and hat. Which leads to a question of if it is possible to simulate the process in a compressed time and have better felts or would the cost become too great.

 

[Lefty]

It's also about fur selection and blending. 100% beaver is like 100% cashmere. You can find one ply cashmere sweaters, made in China, for $30 on sale at TJ Maxx, or you can buy 12 ply cashmere sweaters, made with care, for a small fortune.

All it takes is $$$$

http://www.customshirt1.com/CashmereSweaters_M_SC.html

Rlk has posted a chart or two showing the differences in price between various furs. If I remember correctly, there were three or four classes of 100% beaver. Likewise, there are different qualities of rabbit, hare, and blends. My 7XCB is head and shoulders above any 100% beaver hat I've handled (though I haven't handled Optimo's silver belly) and it's not just about finish.

 

[alanfgag]

I appreciate the love that goes out to the custom hatters in our community... well deserved. But to my mind, vintage is a different thing. Collecting vintage hats is an archeological dig into an industry that employed thousands of skilled workers serving millions of consumers. Fashion designers, textile artisans, graphic designers, marketing folks... tools and raw materials that are now unavailable or hard to come by, skills that were developed over lifetimes and then passed down.

I've been happy with the work that Optimo has done on my small restoration projects and I'm looking really looking forward to visiting when I'm Chicago in June. But my passion is in the fossil hunting. Amazingly, you can find fossils in the field that date from the height of the Jurassic age of hats. If you shop carefully, you will find some pearls in mint condition that are priced at a fraction of the finest new hats. In these examples, the felts, liners, styling... even the logo designs are exceptional. Living history, and on top of it all (excuse the pun) you can wear 'em.

 

[gtdean48]

According to the custom hatters, modern felts are exactly the same as the vintage felts were when they were made. The difference apparently is time and I'm not sure how time affects felt. Rabbits and beavers are pretty much the same animals they were 75 years ago and the felt appears to made on the same equipment it was made with back then. I did read that thinner, lighter weight felts were more common in the old days but I don't think that is a quality issue.

Felt bodies coming off the line are probably similar but in the past, these bodies were aged for at least a year before being used. Today, they can't afford to have the cash tied up that long. The felting of that aging process DID produce a better quality felt body to start with in the processing.
I'm not going to touch the possible global warming effect on animal fur because we all know where that will lead....

 

[randooch]

No, he took it everywhere, he just never actually wore it.

Cool picture, and touche!