Vintage menswear that's IMPOSSIBLE to find

[Veronica Parra]

It's clear why the items below would be very difficult to find: they quickly became either obsolete or dirty/worn out, so into the trash they went. What puzzles me is why they are impossible to find. In 20 years of collecting vintage, I've never known anyone to stumble across the following:


1. 1930s men's "College/Campus/Varsity"-style suits ... the kind with rope shoulders, bell-bottomed pants, and two-tone double-breasted vests.

2. 1930s men's white belts ... to match the white shoes worn by every '30s guy in the summer. There had to have been millions of these. No more, apparently.

3. 1930s men's dress shirts with an attached round (club) collar.

4. 1930s men's dress shirts with an attached l-o-n-g point collar called a "Barrymore collar" (named after the actor John Barrymore, who popularized it). Duke Ellington wore these all the time. Where are they now?

5. (Please feel free to add to the list) _______________________________

-- Marc

 

[Mycroft]

It's clear why the items below would be very difficult to find: they quickly became either obsolete or dirty/worn out, so into the trash they went. What puzzles me is why they are impossible to find. In 20 years of collecting vintage, I've never known anyone to stumble across the following:


1. 1930s men's "College/Campus/Varsity"-style suits ... the kind with rope shoulders, bell-bottomed pants, and two-tone double-breasted vests.

2. 1930s men's white belts ... to match the white shoes worn by every '30s guy in the summer. There had to have been millions of these. No more, apparently.

3. 1930s men's dress shirts with an attached round (club) collar.

4. 1930s men's dress shirts with an attached l-o-n-g point collar called a "Barrymore collar" (named after the actor John Barrymore, who popularized it). Duke Ellington wore these all the time. Where are they now?

5. (Please feel free to add to the list) _______________________________

-- Marc

In response to the white belts, you can find repros for Communions and Easter suits.

 

[Veronica Parra]

Thanks!

I'm looking for a belt in white buckskin, the same leather used for white buck shoes.

 

[nightandthecity]

well I haven't yet tried this...but it has crossed my mind to get a US Army tan canvas belt and bleach it, then maybe touch up with blanco (kit whitener) if results are patchy

But don't blame me if it ends in tears

 

[BellyTank]

Those 'Army' belts come in every imaginable colour(surplus shops)- if you can't find a white or cream one, you can often find 1.5" or thereabouts webbing in a haberdashery/sewing shop-

B
T

 

[flat-top]

1. 1930s men's "College/Campus/Varsity"-style suits ... the kind with rope shoulders, bell-bottomed pants, and two-tone double-breasted vests.

Well, hindsight being 20/20, I remember seeing a couple of these DEADSTOCK at a place in NYC (which I guess now is closed) called Cheap Jacks. Pretty amazing I must say. Any NYers who have been there, these were on the 2nd floor where all the suits were, all the way on the left side. Maybe you saw them too!
flat-top

 

[Veronica Parra]

Holy cow, Flat-top! Did they look like these?:

When did you see the suits there?

How much were they?

 

[flat-top]

The vests I'm not sure about, but that was more or less what I saw. They were I believe flannel, and a sort of plaid pattern (I can see it in my head, but can't describe). This is going back like 6+ years mind you, and Cheap Jacks is no more, so who knows what happened to them. And they must have been obscenely expensive, since Cheap Jacks was notoriously overpriced. I was kind of obsessed with these suits, and would "check" on them everytime I went the the store, and they were always there!
Two of the exact same same suit, with unfinished pants!
I know,I know...I should get smacked!
flat-top

 

[Matt Deckard]

I see the attached point collar 30's shirt off and on, though they are always the wrong size.

 

[Sefton]

I see the attached point collar 30's shirt off and on, though they are always the wrong size.

If one could find a vintage 30s shirt like that what would the price be? I saw a 30s shirt for sale at an online vintage dealer once. It was $80. Is that about right?

 

[Matt Deckard]

50 cents at thrift stores, not kidding!

If it is deadstock on Ebay I'd pay 20-30.

 

[android]

Holy cow, Flat-top! Did they look like these?:

I think that's a duplication error of the ad copy. If you trace a line straight across the top of the two flat tops, it just missed the third head.

 

[Sefton]

50 cents at thrift stores, not kidding!

If it is deadstock on Ebay I'd pay 20-30.

Boy, I'm really glad now that I didn't buy that one for $80!

 

[Senator Jack]

The thing to keep in mind about vintage stores is that you should only pay top dollar if:

a) it is something that is in MINT condition - there's no need to to come home with anything with holes or stains. With enough legwork, you can find that any tag sale or thrift store. Cheap Jack's was notoriously overpriced and on top of that his stuff was usually pretty worn.

b) it fits you near perfectly. By near perfectly, I mean the cuffs only have to be hemmed and, possibly, the back let out or taken in. That's all. If any other work has to be done, wait till you find the item someplace else. It's out there.

c) it is absolutlely one of a kind. When you've done as much vintage shopping as I have, you get to know when something is one of a kind. I used to buy a lot of sharkskin suits and none of them was one of a kind and I never paid much for any of them. But I do have a sharkskin overcoat that IS one of a kind. I cannot go into a vintage shop with it on without the proprietor asking me where I got it from. They just didn't make them, and nobody's ever seen them.

What is top dollar? I consider vintage dead mint one of a kind suits in NYC top dollar at $200. In the sticks, I'd go with about half that. If it needs work, half again. The fact is, men don't buy vintage. Period. I've had this conversation with countless proprietors. Pieces sit there for months and even years because men come in and though they say they like something they can't see spending that kind of jack on something they're never going to wear. That's what always pissed me off about Not So Cheap Jack's. He had all these items that were going to sit there forever because he would have rather sold one men's suit every Halloween than twenty suits at a lower price throughout the year. Though now I'm wondering if he sold all that stock to Andy's Not So Cheepee's who have always been a tad cheaper than Not So Cheap Jack's.

You have to keep in mind the mentality of the proprieter. If they buy something from a vintage wholesaler (which is from where a lot of retailers buy their clothes from these days) for $25 they're going to mark it up to $150. A lot of people will look at it for $150 and pass. Then there'll be the one person that HAS to have it, even if it is $150. It may take that person one month, one year, or even a decade to show up, but eventually he will. In the meantime, the dealer has stock, and the store looks full. That's why those 30s suits were there for years at Cheap Jack's. The person who HAD to have them no matter the price had never come in. When my girlfriend and I were selling on Ebay a few years ago, one of the local retailers bought a purse from her. I think it went for about $30. About six weeks later we were in the store and my girlfriend casually looked into the case and asked to see the purse she had sold. "What a pretty purse. How much is this,' she asked and $125 was the answer. Lesson: Vintage shops are NEVER a place for bargains, but they are places for one of a kind and MINT items. Nothing else should be bought at them. Now go out and DIG!

Regards,

Senator Jack - Not affiliated with Cheap Jack in any way.

 

[flat-top]

A funny sidenote: Cheap Jack and Andy Cheepee are BROTHERS!! But apparently arch-rivals! I wonder who DID get Jack's inventory?!
flat-top

 

[MudInYerEye]

You said it before I did. it's true. Brothers in highway robbery.
I've found that in general the price of men's 30's and 40's vintage has gone down drastically in price over the last eight years or so, at least in New York City. Nobody but us stragglers buys it anymore.

 

[Veronica Parra]

True. I've just returned to the U.S. after living 7 years abroad. In that time, the vintage '30s-'40s menswear market here has settled into hibernation mode.



First of all, there's less of it to go around. How many suits do you find from 1910? From 1875? As time goes on, these things disappear.



Secondly, a lot of what's been bought by folks like us is staying in closets and not returning to the marketplace.



Thirdly, the Swing Dance revival in the U.S. has settled down to the niche where it belongs, and those catering to it are selling reproduction shoes and costumes, rather than hard-to-find, fragile vintage pieces.



Finally, the few collectors out there have become VERY picky. Only the best (in terms of condition, cut, color, fabric and rarity) will do. Pay a lot, or pay nothing. There's less middle ground every day.



-- Marc

 

[Lauren]

I hate to say it, but as a collector I was terribly worried about the swing dance movement. There were a lot of people catching on to a "craze" that wanted to dress the part that didn't know about vintage. This turned up some really awful "vintage look" items, but then the market for the 40's (and 30's since lots of people don't know what 30's clothing actually looks like and say it's either 40's or 20's) went to dancers rather than collectors. I don't mind dancers wearing the pieces, but I also think that some needs to get into the hands of restorers or people who can wear the clothing while keeping in mind that they are not a new piece and can't be treated as such.

And then there was the 70's trend for cutting up victorian dresses into streetwear *shudder*

 

[Wild Root]

I know this is old but, I had to reply.

Hey gang, this is very interesting.

When I started to dance and collect vintage, it was 1996 and when I first went out to a dance, I saw LOTS of guys in vintage!!! It was so cool to see every one dressed up! Yes, most of every one that I saw in vintage suits or what not didn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t know the care and process to maintain these items. Most of the big shots in the dance seen that used to wear vintage have sold it off. A few of my friends have kept it because they do like it and dress up for a good event.

Lauren, I know what you mean. I have talked to so some dancers and I asked them what happened to the cool clothes they had and why don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t they wear them any more. Well, this is what I hear: Oh, that fell apart long ago, or, I was executing a move and then?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ or, I washed it and it shrunk! The list is long! Others liked the look but they got tired of caring for it.

Marc, I have often wondered why it is that we can?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t find some of the ?¢‚Ǩ?ìEveryday Fashions?¢‚Ǩ? of Sears. Those two toned vests with buckles are something I have never seen other then in the Sears catalogs. One reason for this is that I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m sure most guys who did wear them trashed them and then chucked them. Since they were on the cheap side, most of this clothing is no more due to the movie industry, people who inherit Grandpa?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s old suit and just throw it away or, use it in a play or for a Halloween costume. Also, I have met some ladies who buy old suits to cut them up and make quilts out of them! So, a combination of this and some other factors play a major part in why we can?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t find stuff.

The white buck belts: I have seen one! I saw it on a friend of mine who used to dress vintage at Memories. I couldn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t believe what he had but, you know I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m sure it was soaked by sweat and fell apart. But, I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll tell you, I have wanted one ever since I saw it!

A few months ago at the last Vintage Expo, I found a few nice shirts from the 30?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s! They were stripped and with matching detachable collars!!! They had the right look and were MIN! There were three of them and well, the price wasn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t really that bad! But, I didn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t buy them because they would have fit a smaller man. Not too much smaller but, just not a 6?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢3?¢‚Ǩ? man. A friend of mine finds these goods at thrift shops some times! Makes me so mad! But, he?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s only a size 39 or 40 so, he finds the good stuff.

One more thing I wanted to touch upon, most vintage stores or shops have HIGH prices because?¢‚Ǩ¬¶. THE RENT! Do any of you guys know what it cost to run a storefront in NYC? It?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s almost worse then California! The rent is just crazy! These guys have to mark up the items to make a buck. The smart vintage dealers buy what?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s popular and make their money that way, and keep the good vintage on hand for those who are looking for good stuff and they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll have some what better prices. But, that?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s another reason why you?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll find bargains at flea markets and such. But, there is a flip side to this coin. Over the last few years, people have gotten greedy, and to smart for their own good! People will clear out estates and find clothing from the 20?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s 30?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s 40?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s and 50?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s then mark them up to top dollar prices because they saw something like it on Ebay sell for 200-300 bucks. I remember years ago going to an estate sale and saw two very nice 1920?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s beaded dresses. I thought of buying them for a friend of mine but then I saw the price! Each one was marked at $700.00! I was so offended to see prices like that at an Estate sale I almost left.

Ok, on with the show!

WR.

 

[Veronica Parra]

Root, thanks as always for putting it together so well. You're dead right about the dancers, the movie industry, and the high rents.

It is still possible to be lucky and hit paydirt at vintage clothing shows. I have passed on some great deals there, and still kick myself for it.

The most important things you need to find good vintage are AN EDUCATED EYE, TIME, and PATIENCE. Good taste and a sense of (personalized) style also help.