Vintage Forgery on ebay

[ton312]

Thanks for the reply, Ton. I still see nothing at all inconsistent with the lining, and the thread the "pony" label is sewn with is a perfect match to that which assembled the jacket, unlike the thread on the Californian label. Labels would be attached as either part of the overall assembly using the same thread or they would be the work of a finisher who could be on a machine using totally different thread, but as I noted already, this label has been hand sewn in a way so as to attempt to duplicate machine sewing using different thread from the jacket's assembly thread and the thread used on the "pony" label and this is not how factory work was done.

I've seen better attempts at fraud on higher-dollar items, where the labels were first sewn on a machine apart from the cap or jacket, etc. to create a border of stitching that will appear to be the original factory machine sewing, then the label was glued to the item. This type of fraudulent label attachment is more sophisticated and usually is reserved for goods of high value, though matching the thread is still a problem, especially under magnification, and the labels rarely will sit correctly because they aren't sewn down, though they can be very convincing to a fast glance and/or an untrained eye.

Seeing in person is everything, of course, but as a natural sceptic and wary detective for anything remotely out of place due to my early roots in collecting Third Reich artifacts, where one missed detail can cost you or someone else thousands of dollars, I only find this Californian label to have a stink about it.

I would certainly defer to your belief Charles as I'm sure you are far more versed than myself In handling and inspecting vintage items. I just had a gut feeling but I've been wrong many more times than I've been right!
I also agree that the addition of the phony label is totally superfluous. The jacket in and of itself is quite a piece. It's a bit like putting a cherry on top of the cherry on top. It just doesn't make any sense and it's totally unnecessary.

 

[HPA Rep]

Ton, you and I are in agreement about the quizzical reason for adding the Californian label (assuming it's been added, as it appears it was); I need to hear someone tell me this beautiful jacket realized more money with it than without it.

I admit to trying to understand what makes vintage items tick and grasping what genuine age and wear should look like since I was a kid, so I enjoy thinking through these exercises in sleuthing and sharing what I know with you guys. I want to hear from you all because we can never see everything and never stop learning, so I want to understand your logic and the reasons for your conclusions. Thank you for allowing me the chance to explain what I see and why it bothers me (I keep hearing Peter Faulk as Columbo in my head). I hope you all can take my experience and knowledge with you in your endeavors and not fall prey to the crooks in the hobby.

Here's part of why I say the lining isn't replaced:

1) The wear in the lining matches the wear to the exterior and the lining does show friction from light use (pilling) that wouldn't occur if it was a very recent addition.

2) The thread employed to sew the lining in place matches the jacket's assembly thread, which would not be the case if the lining was replaced.

3) The wear to the "pony" label is consistent with the wear to the lining, showing just light use with slight curling/bending over of the label on the edges where the label was clipped from the roll with pinking shears.

4) And this is, by itself, enough to end any suspicion: The hem on the outside of the jacket would have to reflect new stitching if the lining was installed in a "factory" manner, which means the hem stitching and thread would not match that of the zipper because a jacket is closed along the zipper during manufacture (entry to replace a lining, cuffs, etc. would also begin where the jacket was closed), but here the hem and zipper thread and stitching a perfect matches, showing no empty stitch holes from the original lining installation. Even if the exact same thread was available and used by the best sewers, it's inescapable that some telltale sign would be forthcoming in a closeup pic as seen below. If I had this jacket in hand, I would also be looking in the sleeve lining and armpit area for any telltale signs of monkey shines.

I also invite you to have a look in the pic at what may be a nice piece of history that was left behind for us. Along the bottom hem of the lining at the stitch line is a single strand of black fiber/thread that could have been caught under the hem stitching when this was made. If this is indeed under the stitching and not on top, then it's a glimpse into the factory some 70 years ago and holds some clues in this regard, and thus information about the jacket's production. I can't say for sure in this pic if it's under the stitching or not, but I've seen various little clues such as this in the past and they offer great insight into the production of the goods, which, unfortunately, in most cases of recent recall, further contributed to the conclusion that the item I was viewing was made in the last few years and not 70-plus years ago.

Anyway, this is all part (and it's ONLY just a part of many) of what you should be looking for when trying to smoke out the wolves. Good luck!

 

[tmitchell59]

I very, very strongly suspect this label is replaced and hand sewn to replicate machine stitching! In fact, I'm 99.9% positive based only on this photo. It appears there are stains on the lining fabric that run under the label; if this is true, then I need know nothing else because the only way stains got under this label is for the original label to have been removed and the jacket worn without the label in place, thus gaining the stains where a label now resides (a new label was added at some later date).

Interesting. I'll do more pictures tomorrow, the jacket has a separate "Genuine Horsehide" tag. the somewhat generic type. I'll photo that also, but it does look correct. Perhaps the jacket never had a label? Itself another forgery? There may be a connection between these jackets.

examine the new photos and confirm your findings. We may be on to something.

I did bid on this jacket in two different auctions. I was the second highest bidder in this particular one. I also was very close to win the jacket when listed by the Italian dealer. In the past, there have been several nice half belt type with the Californian label. I wonder if those other jackets were the real deal? I just want to say thanks to the OP for let us know.

Yes, again interesting.

If the seller of the ebay jacket is Victor in NYC then I have done business with him. I'm glad to see he cancelled the original auction. I bought a Bill Kelso Sears Hercules from him. It is the real jacket, same one they pictured on their website. I had no concerns or issues everything went fine.

 

[tmitchell59]

So can anyone answer the question as to what extra value the Californian label added to this item? Fraud still seems apparent by someone, but the jacket itself should be worth more than what it sold for.

The California Sportswear label certainly has an appeal to Vintage and contemporary buyers. Bill Kelso, Goodwear, have used this label. Has a Japanese maker used one?

The Jacket I pictured above would look much better with a Californian label. I recently sold a beautiful Horsehide jacket, but only had a generic horsehide label. I've got identical Horsehide barnstormers one has Hercules label, the other a generic Horsehide label. Not difference in coat, but big difference in money.

Surprised anyone would do it with Civilian jackets.

This jacket, with the Cali label, was going around $550 if the auction would have run. This jacket without the Cali label, sold by dinnerman for less than half of that.

 

[Otter]

For those that don't read there, there is a thread on our sister site, Vintage Leather Jacket Forum. Go to the EBay / Auction Talk sub forum.

 

[willyto]

Charles let's put it this way: You have an original contract A-2 without label , another original contract A-2 with original contract label and then you found another original contract A-2 with one original label from one of the rarest contracts out there.

Each one of them will get good money but the last one just for having the label of the rarest contract will fetch more even if the label isn't original to the jacket. That's how it works with vintage brands, some just get more money than others and I'm not the one to answer why because honestly I don't know much but I know for example that Albert Richards jackets or Block Bilt are two of the best makers for me because of the designs so I know those will get more money and having the label adds value. But I was proved wrong when one of the most amazing leather jackets I've seen from Block Bilt sold for just 300$ (A blue patterned suede half belt) and you have normal looking jackets that I would even call boring or simple go for triple that. This market makes no sense whatsoever but I know the prices are very inflated constantly. I just came from London and found two amazing suede jacket for less than 100$ each.

I think the online market is going nuts. People lose sight of reality.

A similar case is happening with this jacket. Dinerman sold it for a fair price originally and then it's been moving hands since then and someone is trying to make profit out of it by adding a label that wasn't part of the jacket. That's a horrible thing to do and this seller is ruining his reputation if he did so himself. I still think the price for the jacket is ridiculous, it is a great half belt but definitely not worth more than what it sold originally for. No one bid so much until it had the Californian label and therefore the price has been inflated artificially and the seller is using the inflated price as reference for his BIN.

 

[tmitchell59]

Pictures are in this album.

I don't see the label over a stain. The stain appears to be on the label. It is hand stitched and the edge on the wide sides have been turned in. This shows in a picture below. Looks to be added. The Horsehide tag seems correct.

I'll wait for Charles assessment.

 

[bretron]

So now we're asking if this other one has an aftermarket and possibly "forged" California Sportswear tag as well? The mafia getting desperate for new revenue streams or something?

But seriously though, has anyone ever seen another Californian" with a horsehide hang tag like that?

 

[HPA Rep]

Charles let's put it this way: You have an original contract A-2 without label , another original contract A-2 with original contract label and then you found another original contract A-2 with one original label from one of the rarest contracts out there.

Each one of them will get good money but the last one just for having the label of the rarest contract will fetch more even if the label isn't original to the jacket. That's how it works with vintage brands, some just get more money than others and I'm not the one to answer why because honestly I don't know much but I know for example that Albert Richards jackets or Block Bilt are two of the best makers for me because of the designs so I know those will get more money and having the label adds value. But I was proved wrong when one of the most amazing leather jackets I've seen from Block Bilt sold for just 300$ (A blue patterned suede half belt) and you have normal looking jackets that I would even call boring or simple go for triple that. This market makes no sense whatsoever but I know the prices are very inflated constantly. I just came from London and found two amazing suede jacket for less than 100$ each.

I think the online market is going nuts. People lose sight of reality.

A similar case is happening with this jacket. Dinerman sold it for a fair price originally and then it's been moving hands since then and someone is trying to make profit out of it by adding a label that wasn't part of the jacket. That's a horrible thing to do and this seller is ruining his reputation if he did so himself. I still think the price for the jacket is ridiculous, it is a great half belt but definitely not worth more than what it sold originally for. No one bid so much until it had the Californian label and therefore the price has been inflated artificially and the seller is using the inflated price as reference for his BIN.

Thank you for explaining, willyto; this all makes sense and I now see that the maker impacts value as it does with just about any other collectible I can think of.

 

[ton312]

Can't help it:

 

[HPA Rep]

Pictures are in this album.

I don't see the label over a stain. The stain appears to be on the label. It is hand stitched and the edge on the wide sides have been turned in. This shows in a picture below. Looks to be added. The Horsehide tag seems correct.

I'll wait for Charles assessment.

Thanks, Ter, for the info and pics. The Californian label was clearly added to this jacket after production, which was an easy call to make. While there is always concern that the fraudsters will exploit the gained knowledge when explaining the reasons for an opinion, I think it's sometimes worth that risk in exchange for educating collectors to be more wary and to become detectives or better detectives, so I'll elaborate. Admittedly, I am not all that familiar with vintage civilian clothing and this brand label, but I am extremely familiar with vintage military artifacts of metal or textile fabrication and it's this I have applied in my deductions:

1) While a "factory" would rarely have labels that were hand sewn, no "factory" job would ever hand sew a label so as to make the sewing look like machine sewing, which is exactly what was done with the Californian label.

2) The back seam on the lining has contorted during the application of the hand-sewn label, which would be fully unacceptable for a "factory" job of any brand and highly unlikely if the label was machine sewn. The seam is not properly aligned underneath the label.

3) It's not clear if the stains on the label (tea-like) are on the thread used to attach the label, but it seems they are not, which would not be at all consistent with normal occurrences. If the stains are on the thread, then this tells us the stains are artificial because the attachment of the label is fraudulent, and it would then make us examine the lining to see if the stains are also on the lining because, during natural wearing, stains would appear on both the label and lining. To me, there still seems to be staining in the lining that runs under the label, which would not be at all natural and would clearly demonstrate that the label was added after production.

4) Any object, label, insignia, etc. that has been on a garment for years will leave an impression on the surrounding fabric as if it was sucked down onto that area and this result is not present here.

5) In some of the pics I think I can see where the original label once rested, but Ter may be right and no label may have ever been attached. Seeing in person would be needed.

6) The overall wear, staining, and look are out of place with the rest of the jacket and in relation to that separate horsehide label that is coming undone.

Experience tells me in one look that would likely come in less than three seconds in person that the label was added after production. This breakdown laid out here is something that would happen in my mind intuitively and instantaneously and is only explained in steps for the edification of other collectors.

If you can, Ter, confront the seller you got the jacket from and tell them exactly what I've stated here and that I'm saying this is bogus work. I will gladly examine this jacket in person if you want to send it to me. I will stand behind my opinions and conclusions stated here as fully based right now only on photos, and I have extreme confidence that my conclusions and opinions won't change if I saw this in person.

Good luck!

 

[HPA Rep]

tmitchell59, if you can snip a piece of the Californian label from the folded-over corner on the one side that's raised up, we can test this with a flame. You want to burn this piece to see if it burns to ash or if it melts into a hard ball: Ash would make this a genuine label and melting would prove the label is a fake!

 

[HPA Rep]

So now we're asking if this other one has an aftermarket and possibly "forged" California Sportswear tag as well? The mafia getting desperate for new revenue streams or something?

But seriously though, has anyone ever seen another Californian" with a horsehide hang tag like that?

We're no longer asking, Bret; I'm stating without equivocation that the Californian labels on both jackets were added after original production as solely based on the pics available. The likelihood that these jackets came from two different sources is low, and the chances that the labels are both genuine is even lower; I'd say both labels are likely current production and we're dealing with a singular crook who knows his market well and the attendant lack of good detective skills among the buyers in this market who, I'm guessing, purchase largely to wear the items and who have not yet developed refined detective skills because it wasn't deemed necessary in the past. I've seen this sort of wakeup call in militaria collecting several times over the years, so I'm not surprised to see it hit this genre of collecting.

 

[bretron]

The fact that Bruce Willis' "Surrogates" jacket was a Californian without question adds to the popularity.

I can't imagine the repro labels would be too hard to source considering both GW and BK use them- although GW used the pink/purple label whereas BK uses the blue/green label

 

[bretron]

We're no longer asking, Bret; I'm stating without equivocation that the Californian labels on both jackets were added after original production as solely based on the pics available. The likelihood that these jackets came from two different sources is low, and the chances that the labels are both genuine is even lower; I'd say both labels are likely current production and we're dealing with a singular crook who knows his market well and the attendant lack of good detective skills among the buyers in this market who, I'm guessing, purchase largely to wear the items and who have not yet developed refined detective skills because it wasn't deemed necessary in the past. I've seen this sort of wakeup call in militaria collecting several times over the years, so I'm not surprised to see it hit this genre of collecting.

What a saga. Good thing I got the tub with free refills!

 

[cdallas]

Here is a picture of my Good Wear Californian Racer label (bottom) and Bill Kelso Surrogates Californian Label (top). I believe both makers also make the pink label.

 

[bretron]

I stand corrected, thanks @cdallas

 

[bretron]

More importantly tho @cdallas great collection!

 

[Otter]

^ Yes, agreed, both very nice !

Back to business, would a repro label use synthetic yarn or would they have gone the whole hog and used the correct thread ?

 

[HPA Rep]

^ Yes, agreed, both very nice !

Back to business, would a repro label use synthetic yarn or would they have gone the whole hog and used the correct thread ?

I'm not sure if you are referring to the repro maker such as Buzz Rickson's, Aero, Eastman, Good Wear, etc., or if you mean the crook putting the fake labels in. And do you mean the label itself or the thread used to sew it in?

The top makers should all be using all-cotton thread to sew it in and those we're affiliated with all do, and the learned crooks do this, as well. I've already commented in this topic how the labels are not being made today using cotton yarns.

I don't see this specific genre (vintage civilian jackets) yet hitting the levels of detail in the assembly of fraudulent goods (too small of a market and the realized price isn't worth the effort) that can be seen regularly in my primary collecting field of WWII militaria, where vintage thread is commonly employed in creation of frauds and the really sophisticated crooks obtain and employ even the specific types of vintage thread that were originally used in making a particular item type (lefthand-twist and two-ply thread, for example).

There's a minefield awaiting all who venture in any area where a fast buck can be made, so exercising extreme skepticism and caution is highly advised, and building a deep, solid knowledge base that is very targeted to what you like, as well as refined thinking skills, are requisites or you will become a victim.