Victorian home bargains?

[BigFitz]

I've always had an appreciation for Victorian era homes and would love to own one day, so I was surfing and fantasizing when I came across a site that makes me think of the possibilities. Now, a lot of the homes are out of my price range but some could be doable if I wanted to move. And after thinking about the cost it got me thinking about what you really get for the money.

Take the following home for instance:

http://flowerhouseforsale.com/

Built in the 1880's, 3900 square feet, many upgrades, great condition, $289,000. It's located in Quincy, Ill. and I don't know what the neighborhood is like, but for what it is, it seems like a bargain. And considering what it would cost to reproduce today, it's probably a downright steal. Anyone want to opine on what the cost would be to recreate today, as I'm curious on what opinions would be. I've no knowledgable idea myself but would hazzard to say easily over a million dollars.

Anyway, just thought I'd post the link to this beautiful home for others to enjoy. I stumbled across it at this site with many more beautiful homes to drool and dream over. Enjoy.
http://www.historicproperties.com/

 

[sheeplady]

You couldn't buy the wood to build them and the land underneath for $289,000. Except for a few areas (like floor joists) code today requires less wood to be used in construction than in Victorian times. If you wanted to build a modern house to Victorian specs, including spacing of studs, number of timbers, etc. you'd go broke between the wood required and the labor to build it.

My husband and I recently bought a real fixer upper Italianate Victorian, it's currently unlivable. It was split into 3 apartments and never had a universal heating system, has been resided, and has the windows replaced with creepy modern ones. It is an incredible structure, and we couldn't afford to buy the land, pour a basement, and build the frame for the price we paid (we basically got a free frame in good shape). I also believe strongly in liberal historic preservation, so having a project house that needs a loving hand appeals greatly to me. It's nice to buy and live in a beautiful home that is in move in condition, but it is so much better to restore something that would otherwise be destroyed into the grand home it used to be.

 

[Stanley Doble]

I don't know what it would cost to reproduce today. I doubt you could build an exact replica at any price. You could build a 3900 square foot, "Victorian style" McMansion but if it was still standing in 100 years it would be a miracle.

I have owned a few Victorian buildings. Most of the ones still standing were well built and will stand forever given decent care. But they have certain disadvantages.

Most will need complete rewiring and new plumbing. If the old knob and tube wiring or galvanized or iron plumbing is in place, definitely. This is not a disaster but will cost money. You will need an electrician and plumber experienced in these retrofits who can do the work with minimal damage, meaning holes in walls mainly.

High ceilings and lack of insulation make them hard to heat. It is possible to add insulation and ceiling fans to circulate the air. But you will be happier if you don't expect to keep the temp above 68. Lower if possible. Get used to wearing slippers and a sweater.

On the other hand, the design keeps them cool in summer. You probably won't need air conditioning in the north. Just a few fans.

If you want to buy one, definitely get a home inspection. Avoid any houses with foundation or serious roof issues. There are plenty of good ones out there. If you are lucky enough to find one that has just had new plumbing and wiring installed correctly, has a good roof, has been painted recently, it is worth paying a premium price. Just the things I mentioned can cost tens of thousands of dollars.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Another thing to keep in mind is that such houses need a lot of upkeep. Cleaning gutters, painting woodwork, periodic shingling of the roof, gardening and grass cutting. Every week there will be a bill of some kind.

The house in the picture was no doubt built for a local millionaire. A manufacturer or merchant, possibly the mayor. Someone who could not only afford such a house but could afford a staff to maintain it.

It is funny to think that 100 to 150 years ago even the small towns had dozens of thriving businesses and dozens of such families.

 

[dhermann1]

Look in any city or town that was prosperous 100 years ago, and is not so prosperous today. You'll find hundreds of wonderful Victorians. Unfortunalely, as Sheeplady points out, they may be in very sad condition.
The frustrating paradox is that many places with good employment opportunities will have some of the newest and cheapest housing stock. Upstate New York, Albany, Rochester, Syracuse, Buffalo, and all the smaller towns across the state, are loaded with gret old places. But making a living there is the challenge.

 

[LizzieMaine]

That's the situation here -- we have entire side streets full of Victorians which when they sell go for $150,000 or so. A great many of them have long since been turned into apartment houses or duplexes -- some as far back as WW2, when there was a huge government campaign to get those "drafty old antiques" turned into practical housing for war workers. It's rather rare around here to find an unaltered Victorian that's been a single family house for its entire life.

Most of the people who buy the Victorians up here are trustfunders who've come here for the Art Scene. Anyone who has to actually work for a living would have a rough time keeping up such a house given the cost of fuel oil (we don't have natural gas here, and wood stoves will only take you so far.)

 

[vitanola]

We live in one of those lovely old piles. An 1849 Greek revival home which was updated and expanded in the Italianate style in 1862. 5500 square feet, 6 bath, 5 bedroom (three bedrooms have private, attached baths) first floor laundry, large kitchen with 2 sinks, 2 convection ovens, and gas and electric cook tops. We restored the house in 2001-2003, replacing all wiring (in conduit), all plumbing, the heating and cooling plants (3 zones for economy) installed a new lifetime rubber roof, and pointed and repainted the brickwork. the home is in a nice location in a quiet neighborhood in a pretty Southern Michigan town of 2500. At the peak of the market we thought that the place might be worth $275,000. Now, I think that $145-150,000 would take it, as I've a couple of other places that I have or am restoring.

 

[sheeplady]

Look in any city or town that was prosperous 100 years ago, and is not so prosperous today. You'll find hundreds of wonderful Victorians. Unfortunalely, as Sheeplady points out, they may be in very sad condition.
The frustrating paradox is that many places with good employment opportunities will have some of the newest and cheapest housing stock. Upstate New York, Albany, Rochester, Syracuse, Buffalo, and all the smaller towns across the state, are loaded with gret old places. But making a living there is the challenge.

Having lived in upstate the majority of my life, yeah, we are full of beautiful homes for dirt cheap. Whenever I have visitors, they always are extremely jealous at our low costs of living. But we have no jobs and those that we have don't pay well. Those of us that are here hang on for dear life. As places, we basically have a lot of history because we don't have the money to tear it down and build new.

 

[dhermann1]

"Poverty is the friend of preservation."
I grew up in Chautauqua NY, home of Chautauqua Institution. We have Victorians up the wazoo in Chautauqua County.
This is my favorite available Victorian in that area right now. 4,200 sq ft for $229,000. It has a lovely location in the very pretty village of Westfield, NY.
http://www.howardhannaholt.com/Web/...lpp=20&index=1&total_listings=24&from=results

 

[BigFitz]

You couldn't buy the wood to build them and the land underneath for $289,000. Except for a few areas (like floor joists) code today requires less wood to be used in construction than in Victorian times. If you wanted to build a modern house to Victorian specs, including spacing of studs, number of timbers, etc. you'd go broke between the wood required and the labor to build it.

My husband and I recently bought a real fixer upper Italianate Victorian, it's currently unlivable. It was split into 3 apartments and never had a universal heating system, has been resided, and has the windows replaced with creepy modern ones. It is an incredible structure, and we couldn't afford to buy the land, pour a basement, and build the frame for the price we paid (we basically got a free frame in good shape). I also believe strongly in liberal historic preservation, so having a project house that needs a loving hand appeals greatly to me. It's nice to buy and live in a beautiful home that is in move in condition, but it is so much better to restore something that would otherwise be destroyed into the grand home it used to be.

Well, Sheeplady, if you ever decide to post anything about your experiences, trials and tribulations and photos of your home and restoration work, I'd be keenly interested in reading about and seeing the results. Good luck and congratulations to you.

 

[Stanley Doble]

They made smaller houses too. I have had some nice solid brick Victorians in the 1500 to 2500 square foot range. 3 or 4 bedroom, one bath, kitchen dining room and living room. With attached woodshed. These can be renovated into quite nice, affordable homes with mod cons but without ruining their period charm. In the northern US I would expect something like that, in good shape and in a good neighborhood, to sell for under $100,000. Often they come with fireplaces, pocket doors, woodwork, parquet floors and other details you couldn't buy today.

As an investor and renovator I have had a few Victorians. Around here they are a common type of dwelling. The biggest was a 3 storey 1869 mansion that became 9 big apartments. But most were more modest, middle class detached or semi detached houses.

 

[Stanley Doble]

That's the situation here -- we have entire side streets full of Victorians which when they sell go for $150,000 or so. A great many of them have long since been turned into apartment houses or duplexes -- some as far back as WW2, when there was a huge government campaign to get those "drafty old antiques" turned into practical housing for war workers. It's rather rare around here to find an unaltered Victorian that's been a single family house for its entire life.

Most of the people who buy the Victorians up here are trustfunders who've come here for the Art Scene. Anyone who has to actually work for a living would have a rough time keeping up such a house given the cost of fuel oil (we don't have natural gas here, and wood stoves will only take you so far.)

Charles Addams made these houses famous in the 30s with his Addams Family cartoons. In those days such houses were a drug on the market and every town had its haunted house, a Victorian monstrosity that had been sitting empty for years.

The Addams family at home:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=591795&GSub=92113

Those prosperous business men and professional men thought they were building for the ages, a house for their children and grandchildren. But most of them were obsolete and abandoned by WWI, the lifestyle they represented as dead as the Pyramids.

When I was a kid in the fifties a few were occupied by old timers like my mother's great aunts, 2 spinster ladies living in a house their father built before 1900. But many were run down, almost to the point of being slums. Others were cut up into apartments and rooming houses.

I have a 1959 book on real estate investing by a San Franciscan that explains how those old Victorian monstrosities can be modernized by tearing off the gingerbread decorations and repainting in charcoal gray and rose pink.

It was only in the seventies that people first appreciated them for what they are, and began restoring and preserving.

 

[sheeplady]

Well, Sheeplady, if you ever decide to post anything about your experiences, trials and tribulations and photos of your home and restoration work, I'd be keenly interested in reading about and seeing the results. Good luck and congratulations to you.

Thank you! We are very excited. It is a beautiful home. Or it will be in 10 years... although I think we might be deluding ourselves about how "done" it will be in 10 years. Life isn't worth living without adventures.

I do have to add that I do take a rather liberal view of preservation, and I don't believe in living in a museum. Houses change, and so long as you're not gutting historical things, they should change to make them livable. So a couple of walls (which we don't think are original and can't tell) will come out, and bathrooms will go in, etc. One of the benefits of the house we bought is that there is little historical to rip out. Which makes me feel less bad about changing one room or another to suit modern life.

As far as heat, since there is no central heating system, we're looking into a geothermal heat pump. The additional cost is minimal compared to putting in an oil system because of governmental incentives. Any difference supposedly pays for itself in a few years. We considered an outdoor wood burning furnace, but we decided against one because the cost of installation was almost the same and there's no incentives for a wood heat system.