Victor Victrola XIV

[astaire]

I've been looking around for an old phonograph and came across a Victor Victrola XIV in my local antique mall last month. It's not in mint condition cosmetically, but it still plays well and loud. from the serial number i found out it was made in 1917. I also learned that the doors are made from walnut, which was a "fancy" option.

So, in contemplating whether i should salvage this machine, i thought i should ask the experienced people in the lounge if i should proceed with the purchase. I know it will take a lot of TLC to bring this baby back to its glory days. but i think part of being a member of the lounge means that we have affections to old things and would be very sad to see a lovely phonograph sit and deteriorate there.

As my father just passed away last monday, i thought this machine can cheer my mom and myself up. dad wasn't a big music fan, but when he was happy when i bought and played him a swing jazz cassette for his birthday in the early 80s.

What things, good and bad, should I look for when I decide to purchase it?

Thanks always!

 

[Flivver]

The Victrola XIV is a rather common machine in mahogany or oak, but not in walnut.

Things to look for prior to purchase:

Is the machine complete? Spare parts are available but can quickly escalate the total cost.

Is the nickel plating good?

Is the soundbox (round unit on the end of the tone arm) OK? Note that the thick black rubber gasket between the tonearm and soundbox often needs replacement and can be obtained for a few dollars.

Is the cabinet finish original? Refinished machines are worth far less than those with an original finish.

Around here, a clean, working original XIV in mahogany can be purchased for around $250-$350.

 

[scotrace]

How much will you have to pay? Antique malls tend to overvalue Victrolas a lot.
Is it a VICTOR Victrola or some other model? (Columbia, Brunswick, etc)

Check any veneers. If they are peeling they can sometimes be repaired, but big chipped-off areas will have to be replaced and matched.

Is anything missing? Crank, reproducer, turntable?

If it's got all its pieces, and the motor turns, (I assume so since it plays loud), go ahead and pick it up if the price is reasonable. You can do a lot with cleaning. And a ring on the lid from someone's martini 50 years ago kind of adds charm, I think....


Some of us have taken completely derelict machines in pieces with missing motors and brought them back to life, so there's not much that can't be tackled successfully.

Any pictures of it?

 

[scotrace]

Around here, a clean, working original XIV in mahogany can be purchased for around $250-$350.

Yipes. I was thinking $150 tops.

 

[astaire]

Thanks Flivver and Scotrace.

The machine is complete in all respect under my inexperienced eyes. i looked under the board and saw the three original springs still intact and everything well oiled. the nickel plating on the tube is something that i need to take care of when i purchase it. everything seems to be there and even the sticker inside the bottom cabinet is still 90% intact.

The veneer on the side panels are not in good condition though. the maple doors need a new coat of varnish. but the carvings on the legs are in very good condition and really wonderful to look at.

The soundbox is in good condition, except for the black rubber gasket. it is not the no.2 reproducer i see alot on ebay. the nickel plating on the round grill of the soundbox is still excellent, except for the opposite black side that seems to need a good clean (how do you clean this?).

i wish i had taken a picture of it. i'll try to do that as soon as i got the chance.

The seller's asking price is $500 he said he'll include 20 78rpm records.

what to do guys?

 

[astaire]

Yipes. I was thinking $150 tops.

Funny you should mention that scotrace.

I thought if we're willing to spend a little over $100 for a borsalino or a stratoliner in size 7-1/4, shouldn't we expect to pay more for a working victor victrola from 1917? the victrola VV-XIV were selling between $150-$200 when they were sold then. In the hat spectrum, i guess that is equivalent to a Dobbs fifteen or twenty in terms of quality range.

last month i paid $9.99 for a vintage remington model 12 typewriter. although the shipping costs $25, some vintage items are still a bargain compared to others.

I guess alot of things are due to demand more than supply. Good thing is that some great vintage stuff are still cheap to get.

 

[Flivver]

Hi Astaire:
$500 sounds like an awfully high price to me...especially given the condition. These machines are not at all rare. I suspect that if you're willing to search a bit, you can find a machine in better condition for a lower price.

And if you want to listen to electrically recorded records made after 1925, one of the Victor Orthophonic machines might be a better choice. These machines can reproduce the wider frequency range present on the newer recordings. An earlier machine like the XIV does best on pre-1925 acoustic recordings.

 

[scotrace]

Flivver is right on all counts. $500 is too much.

When you say that the soundbox has a "grill," that tells me it isn't a correct item, as no VV had such a soundbox except for the orthophonic models Flivver mentioned. That makes $500 WAY too much. If the veneer needs work, the soundbox is iffy, then $150 -200 is the outside price (in my opinion!)

Correct possible reproducers (soundbox):
Possible (if it has been upgraded):

Probable:

Orthophonic (which is incorrect for your model):

Stuck on junk:

 

[Flivver]

Those soundbox photos posted by Scotrace are really helpful!

If the machine in question was made in 1917, it should use the Exhibition reproducer (second picture down). The #2 reproducer (top photo) was introduced in mid-1918, if I recall correctly. Since some owners and dealers retro-fitted the newer reproducer, either one could be considered correct for this machine...particularly since it apparently has a 1917 date on the paper label.

But if the original reproducer is not there, I'd forget about this particular machine.

 

[Absinthe_1900]

A good reference for antique phono info, a great mailing list:

http://oldcrank.org/mailman/listinfo/phono-l

As has been said $500.00 is very steep for that machine in the condition you describe, I'd keep looking, there are plenty of nice machines out there.

Some good antique phono resource links (APSCO does excellent work btw):

http://www.antiquephono.com/links.htm

 

[astaire]

Thanks guys for the valuable input. $500 is indeed steep. I'm going back to bargain with the owner saturday afternoon. I've bought an old Ericsson crank phone, a rare 1920 English Ideal sewing machine, and an old Dutch pharmacy scale with precision telescope during the past year from this shop. All of these were at bargain prices, about $250 in total. I'll mention what the prevailing market price to him and see what he can figure out of this.

BTW, the sound box on the XIV looks more like number 3. I'll post photos as soon as i get the chance.

What are the differences between the orthophonic, exhibition, and No. 2 reproducers? does anyone produce better sound?

I have tons of questions to ask and i'll start with the reproducer question.

Thanks guys for spending time answering my silly newbie questions.

 

[scotrace]

Absinthe also has great advice. I've been a member at Old Crank for many years, as well as PhonoList.

Here is the largest phonograph-related link list I know of:

Record and Phonograph Links.


In short, the orthophonic reproducer is only used on an orthophonic victrola - a later, more expensive (and rarer) machine that employed a long, "folded" internal horn to amplify sound. The reproducer was capable of bringing out the greater frequency range of electrically recorded sound.
They are a bear to restore.

The other two work well in good condition. You would replace dried gaskets and chipped mica. The stuff that is meant to vibrate with the sound must be able to do so or the sound is flat and unpleasant.

There's a great deal of info out there. Get thee to Google.

 

[max the cat]

victrola

lot of good advice here. I think 300 would be tops$$

for sheer listening post 1925 electric records really sound better on an Orthophonic but reproduce ok on the earlier w/ mica diaphragms-but only w/ smallest soft tone needle.

I would bet that in 1933-39 the swing kids were probably playing their Goodman , Dorsey 78's etc on sometimes 20 year old equipment- purchased used or handed down.so the concept of matching the playback equipment to recording-however correct-and sonically pleasing- probably was a rarity in most depression era homes.(and probably historical revsionism on our part)
I remeber seeing some ads for British EM Ginn(?) 30s phonos still acoustic w/upright acoustical horn-and British dance band records of the early 30s seem to have a a diminished freq response as though intended for acoustical reproduction.
years ago I used to test reproducers for Bob Waltrip-and wrote out on a musical staff which ranges reproduced best(not really knowing much about cycles) great fun-Victrolas really are high end audio just old.

 

[Flivver]

I agree that during the depression, those great swing discs were often played on obsolete equipment. But, unfortunately, this permanently damaged those records since the pre-Orthophoic reproducers lacked sufficient compliance to not damage electrically recorded discs.

For preservation sake, swing era discs are best played on a modern turntable with a modern 78 rpm cartridge set to the specified stylus pressure. This arrangement, coupled to a modern dynamic noise limiter, will give the greatest listening pleasure on vintage 78s.

But sometimes, it's just more fun to listen to records on a vintage acoustic phonograph. In this case, be sure to change the steel needle after each play, or use a semi-permanent stylus like the Victor Tungs-Tone (supposedly good for 100 plays).

 

[max the cat]

78s

as per fliver -I amn sure the repros were shot and people didnt change needles based on records I junked 30 +years ago.
I remember playing 30s records on a vic 16 w/ soft tone needle and compliant repro-which was ok until Iheard reproduction on the Credeza.

I remember noticing some records w/ very worn grooves during a solo passage-perhaps a musician was the original owner. the cd of today of course furnishes no such clue.
I remember seeing some albums . w/ newspaper or Downbeat or Metronome style pix glued on cardboard-- think LePages musilage- in that pre gluestick time.

 

[astaire]

I agree that during the depression, those great swing discs were often played on obsolete equipment. But, unfortunately, this permanently damaged those records since the pre-Orthophoic reproducers lacked sufficient compliance to not damage electrically recorded discs.

For preservation sake, swing era discs are best played on a modern turntable with a modern 78 rpm cartridge set to the specified stylus pressure. This arrangement, coupled to a modern dynamic noise limiter, will give the greatest listening pleasure on vintage 78s.

But sometimes, it's just more fun to listen to records on a vintage acoustic phonograph. In this case, be sure to change the steel needle after each play, or use a semi-permanent stylus like the Victor Tungs-Tone (supposedly good for 100 plays).

Flivver brought up interesting points which i'd like to know more of:

1. what distinguishes electrically recorded discs from non-electrically recorded (is there a term for these)? can you tell visually?

2. Stylus pressure: how do you set this on an old Victrola? is it even possible?

3. I was looking in ebay for the Tungs-Tone needles. There are variations of steel needles, then there are chromium needles, and Tungs-tone. What advantages do each of these needles have besides the length of life?

Thanks.

ps, i still haven't bought the VV-XIV yet. i think i will wait for a better offer or a better machine. Thanks for all the advice guys. really appreciate it!

 

[Absinthe_1900]

For preservation sake, swing era discs are best played on a modern turntable with a modern 78 rpm cartridge set to the specified stylus pressure. This arrangement, coupled to a modern dynamic noise limiter, will give the greatest listening pleasure on vintage 78s.

Pick up an old Califone Schoolhouse type phonograph, they reproduce Swing era and earlier 78s quite well, they are generally not too expensive.

 

[Barbigirl]

1907 RCA Victrola

I got one today! For my birthday my dear man gave me a Victrola to replace one that was foolishy sold for unhappy reasons. I was so shocked and thrilled. Now i am in the market for some records!

 

[Flivver]

Flivver brought up interesting points which i'd like to know more of:

1. what distinguishes electrically recorded discs from non-electrically recorded (is there a term for these)? can you tell visually?

2. Stylus pressure: how do you set this on an old Victrola? is it even possible?

3. I was looking in ebay for the Tungs-Tone needles. There are variations of steel needles, then there are chromium needles, and Tungs-tone. What advantages do each of these needles have besides the length of life?

Thanks.

1. Most records recorded after mid-1925 are electrically recorded. On Victor wing labels, the letters VE in an oval (for Victor Electric) are stamped on the record, just outside the label.

2. You can't adjust stylus pressure on a Victrola. It is what it is. Adjustable stylus pressure became widely available on postwar component turntables.

3. Tungs-Tone needles were introduced by Victor in the late teens. I believe they have a tungsten core in a steel shank. They sound great and really do last 100 plays. I've never tried chromium needles. I lucked onto a large quantity of Tungs-Tone needles many years ago and have been using them ever since.

My favorite vintage phonograph for listening to late 1920s electrically recorded records is the Orthophonic Victrola Credenza or 8-30. These are large consoles with folded exponential horns. They sound magnificent! They're not rare, but they can be pricey (about $1,000) because they sound *so* good.

 

[GCHughes]

Playing 78's

I collect vintage phonographs and have about 3 dozen, I have discs I use just on these machines. However, when I want to play rare or NM discs I use a Numark PT-01, which is an inexpensive turntable with a 78 stylus (about $16.00 extra.) You can hook it up to your computer or your audio amplifier. It has 3 speeds and a pitch control. The sound I get from beat old discs on this machine is incredible! (I put the imput into an equalizer and was able to tweak the sound.) It is perfect for playing 78's and 45's.

NOTE: DO NOT PLAY RECORDS MADE AFTER '68 ON THIS MACHINE