Vicenza leather in new Aero is inconsistent

[ButteMT61]

@HPA Rep - interesting. Question then. The Red Lockheed MA-1 we discussed at length. It has the below tag, but I thought this was an accurate repop? Or am I misunderstanding the above?
I'm still hurting over the wife saying she hates it...

"Fantasy" or generic jackets by Buzz Rickson's will typically contain the BR label, whereas those with original-maker labels are intended to accurately portray vintage specimens.

 

[HPA Rep]

@HPA Rep - interesting. Question then. The Red Lockheed MA-1 we discussed at length. It has the below tag, but I thought this was an accurate repop? Or am I misunderstanding the above?
I'm still hurting over the wife saying she hates it...



View attachment 103297

Hello, Butte!

BR told me that the example they copied had no label in it. Since it was a civilian item and former Northrop workers noted that these were, to the best of their recollection, made on a very limited basis by a government contractor for Northrop, BR elected to proudly put their name in the jacket. I've not seen the "model" jacket and cannot comment much beyond this, except to say that it seems to look the part based on the pilots in that F-89H pic.

BR uses this same type of label for items in their civilian or private-purchase line of goods, such as their L-2B in tiger stripe.

 

[ButteMT61]

Thanks @HPA Rep ! That covers it nicely. My heart sank a little when I saw your post. Somehow, I think in my mind I'll end up with one, but unless you can convince me that the XXL is going to possibly fit my 47/48 top, I'm likely not going to tee off the wife just yet...

 

[HPA Rep]

Thanks @HPA Rep ! That covers it nicely. My heart sank a little when I saw your post. Somehow, I think in my mind I'll end up with one, but unless you can convince me that the XXL is going to possibly fit my 47/48 top, I'm likely not going to tee off the wife just yet...

Glad to answer questions ANY time, especially to help clarify the ambiguous and dispel potential rumors. I wish more folks would contact retailers and manufacturers before getting things wound up!

If BR offers the red MA-1 again in 2018, I'll surely do my best to convince you. And if your wife cheeses you off this year in any way, just hold back your trump card and save it for just such a special moment. ;-)

 

[ButteMT61]

I know how to get my red jacket. But my $500 jacket will be $1000+ by the time it's here and on me

 

[Cocker]

Big J, Charles, those are good points you are making here. My point was that I still take BR's offers with a pinch of salt without hard proof that their offerings are based on real examples.

Of course, Charles' post closes my concerns about the L-2A with olive knits. What a great picture, and wonderful jacket that is !

The only thing BR wouldn't be able to give me is a jacket that would suit my frame. At that price tag, whoever the maker is, I will just not be able to settle for a jacket that won't fit me. I'd gladly sacrifice some small details for fit's sake. But of course, that's just me.

Envoyé de mon SM-G950F en utilisant Tapatalk

 

[HPA Rep]

Big J, Charles, those are good points you are making here. My point was that I still take BR's offers with a pinch of salt without hard proof that their offerings are based on real examples.

Of course, Charles' post closes my concerns about the L-2A with olive knits. What a great picture, and wonderful jacket that is !

The only thing BR wouldn't be able to give me is a jacket that would suit my frame. At that price tag, whoever the maker is, I will just not be able to settle for a jacket that won't fit me. I'd gladly sacrifice some small details for fit's sake. But of course, that's just me.

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Thank you, Cocker, glad you like the photo. It's one of those when I first saw it in 2008 that dropped me in my tracks. I truly just stared at it for a few seconds in silence, then let out a "Hokey smoke, Bullwinkle!" I had seen a vintage L-2A once in my life with the OD knit and lining, but to see a color photo taken in theater was really better than holding the specimen in hand. It showed me that where there was smoke there was fire and that these really were issued and worn. Quite a big moment in the historian's mind.

I recall a similar reaction when I held a letter in my hand written by "Bull" Randleman of "Band of Brothers" fame. The letter was discovered in 2004 after tearing down the barracks in England in which some members of E Company 506th PIR were housed; this had taken place just a few months prior. The connection I made to seeing the letter was one of tangible proof that they were there.

But back on topic, I think my postings here have demonstrated that I do not think the brands HPA offers are in any way perfect or god-like and I will readily acknowledge where they may fall short and honestly answer any questions because BS-ing customers is not my style and it will only be exposed at some point down the road, so I say this with utmost sincerity that such things as red or O. D knits on BR jackets that have original-maker labels are not myths. If that should change down the road and I am made aware of it, I will readily acknowledge it, but as my current understanding of BR brand now stands, these reflect extant vintage garments BR used for making the production.

 

[Big J]

@Cocker,
"Hey, it turns out you were absolutely 100% right about that BR B-10 with the rust knits being a historically correct reproduction after all Big J! I'm sorry I accused you of being a shameless apologist for Buzz Rickson's."

"Hey, no worries Cocker, we're all gentlemen here, I don't hold it against you."

@Butte, interesting to see that you'll buy made in Mexico boots, but not made in China Jackets...unless it's that Bronson MA-1 you want 'as a beater'.

@HPA Rep, so what exactly was the modification at the back of the waistband on B-15C (mod) spec jackets?

 

[Cocker]

"Hey, it turns out you were absolutely 100% right about that BR B-10 with the rust knits being a historically correct reproduction after all Big J! I'm sorry I accused you of being a shameless apologist for Buzz Rickson's."

"Hey, no worries Cocker, we're all gentlemen here, I don't hold it against you."

Turns out I'm still not convinced those B-10 with rust knits are historically correct, until I see a picture of an original one. Even like this, I still won't be convinced it's not a repair using old A-2 parts. Nor, for that fact, did I accuse you of being a "shameless apologist for BR". I was just puzzled at the difference of treatment between two manufacturers. I still don't get all the hate for DD, but at least I understand where you're coming from, now!

 

[Big J]

@Cocker, except that you kind of did. You accused me of unfairly talking up BR when it turns out I was right after all. Nice.

As for DD, he's abusive about people and a liar about his products. What's to like?

I get it, I really do. Some people have 'issues' about their body image, so they refuse to accept they can wear standard sizes even when they can. I used to be like that. Some people are willing to forego some accuracy and pay over the odds due to their issues. But if you're willing to overlook the list I gave you about DD's nylon jackets (which covers pretty much every single aspect of those jackets), then you should save yourself $500 and just buy a plastic garbage sack and wear that instead. I'm sure it'll be long enough.

 

[HPA Rep]

Turns out I'm still not convinced those B-10 with rust knits are historically correct, until I see a picture of an original one. Even like this, I still won't be convinced it's not a repair using old A-2 parts.
<snip>

So let me understand you, please, Cocker. I have stated on the record that I have seen a vintage B-10 with red knit just as I have outlined sightings of various USAF jackets in blue using leftover, earlier components, and I did show such an L-2A being worn in 1952, which you also said did not exist. And we are in agreement that both A-2 and USN WWII jacket styles are known to exist with red knit that was factory installed, right? I have also stated that the BR brand reserves their garments with original-maker labels for items that are specific, direct copies of original items. Predicated on these facts, what you have just said can mean only that you think BR and I are conniving liars and/or so inept as to not know the difference between factory-installed knit and replaced knit. That's quite insulting, to say the very least.

I very much regret that I cannot go back to May 1991 and purchase the ratty B-10 I saw in Pomona, CA, but I can ask BR if they own the B-10 that served as the basis for their Superior Togs example with red knit and, in turn, supply a photo. But this leaves me feeling quite uneasy because of the profound insult still attendant, and part of me doesn't want to indulge responding due to the indignity at hand. And even if I do get the photo(s), you've already said that your disbelief runs so deep that you'd think the knits are replaced, clearly indicating you see BR (and maybe me) as incapable of detecting replaced parts even when their observation skills are so refined and attention to detail so good as to correctly and purposely incorporate such minute details on their "modified" B-15 jackets as knit and thread that does not match factory work as found on extant vintage jackets of this type.

Please answer the following:

1) Have you handled vintage A-2 jackets with what you believe to be factory-installed red knit?

2) Have you handled vintage A-2 jackets with what you believe to be factory-installed purple-like knit?

3) Have you handled vintage WWII USN jackets with factory-installed red knit?

4) Do you believe all of the above exist as genuine, factory-created, vintage specimens?

5) Please explain just how you reason to your B-10 red-knit conclusion based on what you know and what I have presented thus far here?

And also please riddle me this: Do you see BR as being run by a bunch sneaky, conniving liars or an inept people with poor eyesight? You know, the way they were portrayed in WWII by us. And am I some treasonous co-conspirator or enabler, taking hard-earned money from unsuspecting "round eyes?"

I believe you can tell a great deal by following the logic and reasoning in the contentions and thinking of people and I really want to understand yours. Thank you.

 

[Cocker]

A profund insult, seriously? Aren't you juuuuuuuuuust a bit overreacting, Charles?

Indeed you proved L-2 existed with olive knits, no doubt about that! What about the olive linings? As for the B-10 with red knits, my bad, I totally forgot you said you handled one already... Gold fish syndrom, I guess!

So, back to the facts! You handled one B-10 with red knits, but it was not a Superior togs one. If you confirm that, despite the bad state the jacket was in, you are sure they were factory installed, I do believe you. You know a good lot more about flight jackets than a lot of people, including myself, obviously. Second fact, BR may or may not be on possession of ONE Superior Togs B-10 with red knits too. I also believe that, if they do, they are more than qualified to state these were factory installed and not replacement parts, so let's consider this is the case. That would make 2 confirmed jackets from different makers using red knits. Is ONE Superior Togs B-10 enough to state that for sure this manufacturer used red A-2 surplus knits for their batch of B-10? Statisticaly, no. So either they have or had more than one, or they have access to sources a lot (and I mean A LOT) of people in the flight jacket community are looking for for years. That is why I consider their red knits B-10 to be more of a commercial gimmick than anything else, something that would make the jacket pop amongst the lot of "regular" B-10, something that would appeal to people who want a B-10 that stands out., and I don't buy the back story behind it.

Now, don't get me wrong, I absolutely does not consider this a bad thing at all. I have stated previously that, if they were available in a pattern that would suit me, I'd jump on it, as I really do love the way they look. This doesn't detract to the excellency of the jacket one bit, in my opinion.

As for the label used on exact repros only, I'm sorry but this doesn't cut it for me. Any maker could claim that.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, for the big Q&A!

1. Nope! Seen a couple up close, but I think the personnel from the museums would not have been amused if I tried to handle them!

2. One Dubow A-2

3. Nope, never seen one either

4. Not necessarily. This is the consensus that they do exists, yes, but as I said, I only saw a couple red/rust knitted A-2 myself, without the opportunity to handle them and try to assess if they were factory installed or not. Facts just lead me to believe that they were way more common than the B-10 in such configuration

5. As I said, appart from the one you handled and the one BR supposedly owns, that's not enough to dismiss the idea of just the odd one off jacket versus the idea of being full batches.

So, let me get this straight... Because I am not 100% conviced about their backup story for their Superior Togs B-10, then I must certainly consider them all, I quote, "a bunch sneaky, conniving liars or an inept people with poor eyesight"? Well, see, that is a real insult here. Hopefully, I'm not easily offended, especially on an Internet forum. I will opt for the polite version here, and just tell you that this is a strange, dangerous way of thinking. You know, the old: "You don't believe what the party says? Please get in line for your bullet in the neck."

 

[bn1966]

I just love jackets with contrasting knits & linings, always fancied a black A-2 with olive knits & lining. Really liked my Buzz L-2A with AF blue shell & green lining, shame it was too long...
Into some jackets money soon, just got to decide where it goes

 

[ton312]

Man you military jacket guys make us CXL vs. (insert other leather type here) guys look like kittens. It's interesting to read though. I guess I should be happy my interests haven't lead to historical accuracy! That rabbit hole is too deep. Even for me.

 

[ProteinNerd]

I guess I should be happy my interests haven't lead to historical accuracy! That rabbit hole is too deep. Even for me.

Amen brother! I feel like I get off easy liking jackets just cause I like them and not because they are 100% historically accurate replicas.

 

[Fonzie]

It’s mind blowing the twists and turns some posts do.
Keep it up though guys, it’s way more interesting than a series of posts complementing or dissecting the fit in a new jacket.
Without these supposedly “friendly feud” posts it would get boring, I think.


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[thor]

Some of you probably know the site “Jet pilot overseas”. It’s got some great photos of 1940’s to 1960’s military jet jocks and ground personnel plus aircraft and equipment and clothing. It’s an excellent historical resource and I’ve learned a lot just by perusing their pics (USAF Squadron guys in uniform wearing custom LEATHER baseball caps with rank insignia, for example). If the photos weren’t mostly black and white, who knows what manner of mix-and-match nylon jacket shells and linings and knits and cuffs we would see?!
https://jetpilotoverseas.wordpress.com/

 

[nick123]

Man you military jacket guys make us CXL vs. (insert other leather type here) guys look like kittens. It's interesting to read though. I guess I should be happy my interests haven't lead to historical accuracy! That rabbit hole is too deep. Even for me.

I don’t know...I love military jackets and keeping up with the posts over there on VLJ. The odd photos, such as the olive knits on the L-2 jacket tickle my pickle. One cat found out through archival evidence that along with Security Aviation Togs, Goldstein & Sons also had complementary first contracts. Those little nuances are fascinating to me. Dissecting photos and whatnot. Also, discovered the Russians were provided with Irvins via Lend-Lease! Hella cool.

From @aswatland

 

[JMax]

Amen brother! I feel like I get off easy liking jackets just cause I like them and not because they are 100% historically accurate replicas.

And I need to find a book title “historical accuracy for dummies”. I enjoy reading posts delving into all that. While most of the time I am totally lost I do enjoy learning as I go.

 

[Monsoon]

..... always fancied a black A-2 with olive knits & lining.

I've seen some pictures of those and they look sharp.