vicenza horsehide or badalassi cowhide?

[Jedy617]

Badalassi is a wonderful leather but I’m guessing this is one of the many many cases in this subculture of someone reading up some material/construction ‘facts’ and becoming a zealot about them while calling people with much more leather knowledge and experience blind. Ten years ago he’d be doing this about storse.

Incidentally, I’d love to do a Badalassi Thedi someday.

Not really. Family has over 40 years in the leather business. I've known badalassi for over 10 years. Just newer to jackets. My scope is well beyond that of the few leathers on offer by jacket makers. What's really a shame is hiding behind fake brands and names like Vicenza and liberty and victory horsehide etc. If you're proud of the product you use, you should be celebrating the tannery, not hiding it. Regardless as many have pointed out...Vicenza is just meh compared to the competition these days. Crazy someone would pay a premium over chromexcel for it. If you want lighter and lots of grain just get goat.

 

[Aloysius]

Not really. Family has over 40 years in the leather business. I've known badalassi for over 10 years. Just newer to jackets. My scope is well beyond that of the few leathers on offer by jacket makers. What's really a shame is hiding behind fake brands and names like Vicenza and liberty and victory horsehide etc. If you're proud of the product you use, you should be celebrating the tannery, not hiding it. Regardless as many have pointed out...Vicenza is just meh compared to the competition these days. Crazy someone would pay a premium over chromexcel for it. If you want lighter and lots of grain just get goat.

"Fake brands and names" like Vanson's "competition weight", Schott's "steerhide" and "naked cowhide", etc?

Look at vintage advertising; this practice of advertising the tannery used in the specific product seems to be a much more modern phenomenon. I'd say having 'house leather' so to say is much more traditional.

My LVC and MiUSA modern Cone jeans came with little tags announcing the Cone denim, but I imagine someone buying 501s in 1966 was just… buying Levi's jeans, not reading advertising about how it's CONE WHITE OAK MILL IN GREENSBORO, NC.

This obsessive detail about that kind of sourcing comes out of modern workwear culture. And I say this as someone who takes great interest in fabric mills, tanneries, etc.

 

[Jedy617]

"Fake brands and names" like Vanson's "competition weight", Schott's "steerhide" and "naked cowhide", etc?

Look at vintage advertising; this practice of advertising the tannery used in the specific product seems to be a much more modern phenomenon. I'd say having 'house leather' so to say is much more traditional.

My LVC and MiUSA modern Cone jeans came with little tags announcing the Cone denim, but I imagine someone buying 501s in 1966 was just… buying Levi's jeans, not reading advertising about how it's CONE WHITE OAK MILL IN GREENSBORO, NC.

This obsessive detail about that kind of sourcing comes out of modern workwear culture. And I say this as someone who takes great interest in fabric mills, tanneries, etc.

I have always liked knowing where my products are sourced from. Yep just like you described with vansons and schotts leather. Of course just because the name of the source is hidden doesn't mean that the product/material cannot be phenomenal. Often times it can be. However it is also easier for potential consumers to look for certain qualities when purchasing something especially online, and having known qualities and repeatability are helpful by knowing a brand name and knowing you like products from that specific supplier. Now, it is also used as a selling point for brands of course. Schott knows what they are doing when advertising horween leather on some of their premium jackets.

Regardless, that was more of an aside, it's a different topic completely. Back to the question at hand when we are talking specific leather qualities between the two, in my own personal experience, I think badalassi has a better hand than vicenza. I think it has much better depth of color. More consistent grain out of the box where vicenza can be hit or miss. I just didn't understand the quote post of the guy who bumped up this thread that badalassi goes down hill while somehow vicenza goes up? Wish I still had my old badalassi veg tan wallet in blue to show off. That one aged quite beautifully.

 

[Aloysius]

I have always liked knowing where my products are sourced from. Yep just like you described with vansons and schotts leather. Of course just because the name of the source is hidden doesn't mean that the product/material cannot be phenomenal. Often times it can be.

I think what they do (and what virtually every leather goods maker in the Golden Age did) makes a lot of sense. I don't think a Swaine Adeney Brigg briefcase is going to give me subpar leather because they just say "traditional English bridle leather". I can rest assured that I'm getting something that meets their standards.

However it is also easier for potential consumers to look for certain qualities when purchasing something especially online, and having known qualities and repeatability are helpful by knowing a brand name and knowing you like products from that specific supplier. Now, it is also used as a selling point for brands of course. Schott knows what they are doing when advertising horween leather on some of their premium jackets.

Frankly, this can be incredibly misleading. The internet is full of people who think they know everything because they've read about factories, tanneries, fabrics, or whatever. They'll often buy things accordingly and then be very dissatisfied with what they get something that checks all the internet's boxes but is unwearable.

Schott knows what it's doing, yes. It's marketing, to the workwear crowd. Frankly, the no-name "horsehide" they use on the 613SH is nicer than the leather on the explicitly-Horween jackets. Likewise, the naked cowhide can contend with the best of them. The steerhide too, in practical terms. And if the quality of those materials dropped, their customers would complain in a more meaningful way than "you changed your tannery".

Regardless, that was more of an aside, it's a different topic completely. Back to the question at hand when we are talking specific leather qualities between the two, in my own personal experience, I think badalassi has a better hand than vicenza. I think it has much better depth of color. More consistent grain out of the box where vicenza can be hit or miss. I just didn't understand the quote post of the guy who bumped up this thread that badalassi goes down hill while somehow vicenza goes up? Wish I still had my old badalassi veg tan wallet in blue to show off. That one aged quite beautifully.

I don't think you understood his post. He recommends Badalassi to people.

He was making the point that Vicenza is a very good example of a leather that looks its worst on the day you get it (the Schott hides are similar), but breaks into something beautiful, whereas Badalassi is already 'there' of the box.

 

[Jedy617]

I think what they do (and what virtually every leather goods maker in the Golden Age did) makes a lot of sense. I don't think a Swaine Adeney Brigg briefcase is going to give me subpar leather because they just say "traditional English bridle leather". I can rest assured that I'm getting something that meets their standards.



Frankly, this can be incredibly misleading. The internet is full of people who think they know everything because they've read about factories, tanneries, fabrics, or whatever. They'll often buy things accordingly and then be very dissatisfied with what they get something that checks all the internet's boxes but is unwearable.

Schott knows what it's doing, yes. It's marketing, to the workwear crowd. Frankly, the no-name "horsehide" they use on the 613SH is nicer than the leather on the explicitly-Horween jackets. Likewise, the naked cowhide can contend with the best of them. The steerhide too, in practical terms. And if the quality of those materials dropped, their customers would complain in a more meaningful way than "you changed your tannery".



I don't think you understood his post. He recommends Badalassi to people.

He was making the point that Vicenza is a very good example of a leather that looks its worst on the day you get it (the Schott hides are similar), but breaks into something beautiful, whereas Badalassi is already 'there' of the box.

I disagree and don't think it makes any sense. It's not even about quality. When I know the tannery and the tannage done I can get some semblance of the materials properties. Your Swaine Adeney Brigg example is perfect for me. I understand that no matter what material they use it will be very high quality. But bakers bridle feels different compared to Sedgwick.

And no, it is not incredibly misleading to consumers. If a wallet is made out of horween shell cordovan I know what I am getting...at least in the raw material and if the product is consistent. The end product may not end up working out for the consumer sure, but the material is the material. When I'm buying shell boots I want to know where the leather comes from. I have horrible experience from rocado, and shinki scratches a lot easier than horween. For the money we are spending it is good to know. Now again, this doesn't guarantee the boots are great but I know if I'm buying Aldens or vibergs the horween shell will have the same properties I'm looking for (relatively, I know Alden does a bit different with their #8 finish)

And again, I disagree with the statement he made specifically saying it's like driving a Maserati out of the lot lol. Badalassi is a prime example of a leather that gets better with age. Another thing people don't know is aeros badalassi is great out the box because it's already partially broken in...aero felt the standard stuff was too stiff so they have it tumbled and reworked by a tannery before they get it.

 

[Aloysius]

Another thing people don't know is aeros badalassi is great out the box because it's already partially broken in...aero felt the standard stuff was too stiff so they have it tumbled and reworked by a tannery before they get it.

I could reply to all the stuff before, but I'd just be repeating myself, so I'll focus on this.

People don't know something that Aero and Ken have been explicit about for years (Aero's batches of Badalassi being reworked by a British tannery to be less like footwear grade)?

 

[Jedy617]

You'd be surprised. A lot of people don't lol. Especially since badassi has only been started being offered pretty publically recently.

I would also be repeating myself. Good day

 

[handymike]

I find Badalassi has a unique trait of changing color pretty quickly. The color you buy might be different within a year.

 

[Imuricecreamman]

I find Badalassi has a unique trait of changing color pretty quickly. The color you buy might be different within a year.

This has been my experience as well. Aero chose pretty much "flawless" hides for my jacket, not much pronounced grain to speak of out of the box. It's starting to come alive though, but the most change I've seen has been in color. Where it was a lot more reddish out of the box, it has now darkened to the most beautiful dark, rich mahogany. I wish the circumstances had been different and that I've gotten to wear it more often as I have no doubts that it would become even better.

From pictures I've seen, the closest I've come to handling Vicenza is probably my eastward windward. The leathers are pretty much non comparable in temper and finish. the windward has a crisper, drier feel to the touch than the Badalassi and actually feels a little brittle and more delicate, but a beautiful leather in it's own right. The Badalassi has always felt bulletproof in any weather condition from sun, rain to Norwegian snowstorm

 

[zebedee]

I've got a Mariner in Vicenza. It is similar in thickness and weight to Aero's goat and has a harder, drier hand. Mine's the dark seal and it is wearing down, very slowly, to a paler beige under-layer, but this will take significant time and wear. For the style, it's ideal because it is not too heavy and 'warms' and flexes well. I think that it would be an ideal hide for things like bags which would need to look new for a long time and also be hard to damage - it certainly shows far less wear than cxl, but more than goat. It is definitely the best I've had for shrugging rain for longest.

 

[Grayland]

When I bought my Aero J-100 through TB, Carrie sent me a sample jacket that was navy Vincenza. Beautiful color and much more manageable than my previous Aero CXL FQHH. I didn't see much in the way of color variation though. I ordered my J-100 in tobacco Badalassi - not because of any serious shortcomings in the Vincenza, but I had my mind set on the Badalassi as I was under the impression the hide had a bit more variation in color. Maybe the best way for me to describe it is that the Badalassi seems "richer" IMO.

 

[zebedee]

When I bought my Aero J-100 through TB, Carrie sent me a sample jacket that was navy Vincenza. Beautiful color and much more manageable than my previous Aero CXL FQHH. I didn't see much in the way of color variation though. I ordered my J-100 in tobacco Badalassi - not because of any serious shortcomings in the Vincenza, but I had my mind set on the Badalassi as I was under the impression the hide had a bit more variation in color. Maybe the best way for me to describe it is that the Badalassi seems "richer" IMO.

I'd agree that it's less bulky. The main advantage it has is that it is light(er) and very tough. It does feel drier than other hides and seems to be, like goat, very much one flat colour.

 

[AerGuitar]

I feel like Vicenza IS hit or miss and in my experience has varied from batch to batch over the years. I’ve owned several Vic jackets, and have received a few Vic fit jackets as well. Compared to CXL and Badalassi, I find the brown tones in Vicenza are a little on the bland side. I’ve only handled a few. I’ve owned 2 Badalassi jackets. Russet, and my current Tobacco BR. The tobacco is just gorgeous. Not as much color variation as some of the brown CXL, but the finish looks like it’s about a foot deep, and it is by far my most complimented jacket. The Badalassi also feels like a suit of armor to me, in a very good way. As far as black goes, blackened brown Vicenza is my hands down choice over black CXL. I have not had the pleasure of handling black Badalassi(yet). Of the 4 black Vic jackets I’ve owned, 3 of them have been moderately heavy and have a beautiful, almost oily, subtle glow once they’ve started to wear in. The other was much softer and lighter with a flat appearance, and almost no character as far as grain. That one also went the teacore route very quickly, much like my black CXL Highwayman. I personally love the Vic and Badalassi, but I can easily see how some could be put off by the Vic if they haven’t handled a really nice batch.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Vicenza is dry, and boring (smooth or pebbly) out of the box. But it does evolve. Most people get blacks or browns which takes even longer to show patina. I have olive, which is dyed through olive color but some how still shows browns in high wear spots. Another mystery. It still feels dry, but it's still getting better.

Now I also have two newer Badalassi jackets. One from Aero, using their Badalassi Lux Russet. One I bought the leather myself from Italy, the Minerva Box version which is used mainly for bags and boots. I had these two jackets less than a month. Out of the box they already have beautiful natural grains. Which was the big selling point for me. I haven't noticed color changes yet. But I will keep track of that. For control purpose I will seal my remaining Badalassi leather in a zip loc bag and compare the two in a few month. I also have some brown Badalassi Minerva Box leather that I planned to make into a sling shoulder bag to fulfill its purpose of being a bag leather. More to come on that.

Aero's Badalassi Lux Russet

My own Minerva Box 5.75oz

The thicker Badalassi Minerva Box is also as flawless as Aero's Lux, just twice thicker. But it also show scratches easier. So whatever Aero used to rework their Lux version helps.

Back to Vicenza. I had shrinkage in one of the sleeves on my Daytona after getting wet and dry. I have not gotten either my Badalassi wet, yet. More to come on if they shrink or not like Vicenza.

I still stand by my original comment. Go Vicenza if you wear it lots. It only gets better. Go Badalassi if you want out of the box awesomeness and the bragging rights. I will post updates if mine changes color. I have a plan to swap out the pocket to a D pocket so if any color changes it will for sure be visible.

My heart still lies with CXL. I hated it at first. And learned to love it over the years. All it needs is a little warmth.
Crashing the Vicenza/Badalassi party with some good old CXL

 

[AerGuitar]

Crash the party! Yes, CXL rocks... funny, I’ve had my Badalassi wet several times, but never Vicenza. No issues whatsoever getting the Badalassi wet in my experience. Well said that Vic can be boring out of the box, but does evolve.

 

[Jedy617]

Cxl still an all time favorite. Can never go wrong

 

[Moostyle]

I could reply to all the stuff before, but I'd just be repeating myself, so I'll focus on this.

People don't know something that Aero and Ken have been explicit about for years (Aero's batches of Badalassi being reworked by a British tannery to be less like footwear grade)?

I would not say that this classes as 'common knowledge' even among people who have a particular interest in buying a leather.

This has been my experience as well. Aero chose pretty much "flawless" hides for my jacket, not much pronounced grain to speak of out of the box. It's starting to come alive though, but the most change I've seen has been in color. Where it was a lot more reddish out of the box, it has now darkened to the most beautiful dark, rich mahogany. I wish the circumstances had been different and that I've gotten to wear it more often as I have no doubts that it would become even better.

From pictures I've seen, the closest I've come to handling Vicenza is probably my eastward windward. The leathers are pretty much non comparable in temper and finish. the windward has a crisper, drier feel to the touch than the Badalassi and actually feels a little brittle and more delicate, but a beautiful leather in it's own right. The Badalassi has always felt bulletproof in any weather condition from sun, rain to Norwegian snowstorm

Can you please provide a photo of the Badalassi colour change? My issue is I want a dark brown and as far as I have seen there is no dark brown Badalassi.

I feel like Vicenza IS hit or miss and in my experience has varied from batch to batch over the years. I’ve owned several Vic jackets, and have received a few Vic fit jackets as well. Compared to CXL and Badalassi, I find the brown tones in Vicenza are a little on the bland side. I’ve only handled a few. I’ve owned 2 Badalassi jackets. Russet, and my current Tobacco BR. The tobacco is just gorgeous. Not as much color variation as some of the brown CXL, but the finish looks like it’s about a foot deep, and it is by far my most complimented jacket. The Badalassi also feels like a suit of armor to me, in a very good way. As far as black goes, blackened brown Vicenza is my hands down choice over black CXL. I have not had the pleasure of handling black Badalassi(yet). Of the 4 black Vic jackets I’ve owned, 3 of them have been moderately heavy and have a beautiful, almost oily, subtle glow once they’ve started to wear in. The other was much softer and lighter with a flat appearance, and almost no character as far as grain. That one also went the teacore route very quickly, much like my black CXL Highwayman. I personally love the Vic and Badalassi, but I can easily see how some could be put off by the Vic if they haven’t handled a really nice batch.

Do you also have a photo of your Tobacco BR in daylight please so I can get an idea of how the colour has evolved?

Vicenza is dry, and boring (smooth or pebbly) out of the box. But it does evolve. Most people get blacks or browns which takes even longer to show patina. I have olive, which is dyed through olive color but some how still shows browns in high wear spots. Another mystery. It still feels dry, but it's still getting better.
Now I also have two newer Badalassi jackets. One from Aero, using their Badalassi Lux Russet. One I bought the leather myself from Italy, the Minerva Box version which is used mainly for bags and boots. I had these two jackets less than a month. Out of the box they already have beautiful natural grains. Which was the big selling point for me. I haven't noticed color changes yet. But I will keep track of that. For control purpose I will seal my remaining Badalassi leather in a zip loc bag and compare the two in a few month. I also have some brown Badalassi Minerva Box leather that I planned to make into a sling shoulder bag to fulfill its purpose of being a bag leather. More to come on that.

Aero's Badalassi Lux Russet
My own Minerva Box 5.75ozThe thicker Badalassi Minerva Box is also as flawless as Aero's Lux, just twice thicker. But it also show scratches easier. So whatever Aero used to rework their Lux version helps.

Back to Vicenza. I had shrinkage in one of the sleeves on my Daytona after getting wet and dry. I have not gotten either my Badalassi wet, yet. More to come on if they shrink or not like Vicenza.

I still stand by my original comment. Go Vicenza if you wear it lots. It only gets better. Go Badalassi if you want out of the box awesomeness and the bragging rights. I will post updates if mine changes color. I have a plan to swap out the pocket to a D pocket so if any color changes it will for sure be visible.

My heart still lies with CXL. I hated it at first. And learned to love it over the years. All it needs is a little warmth.
Crashing the Vicenza/Badalassi party with some good old CXL

Hi Canuck, out of interest do you purposefully ask for such wide arms on your jackets? They look really, really baggy on the three bottom jackets in your photos.

 

[Aloysius]

Hi Canuck, out of interest do you purposefully ask for such wide arms on your jackets? They look really, really baggy on the three bottom jackets in your photos.

The last one is made from a leather that’s designed for luggage. To make the sleeves slim would be an act of torture.

 

[Moostyle]

The last one is made from a leather that’s designed for luggage. To make the sleeves slim would be an act of torture.

Maybe so but isn't there some range between slim and super baggy? Seems like one extreme to another and imo they do not look flattering in any of the bottom three jackets in those photos.

 

[handymike]

Ortensia- new

@Robbie79’s jacket




Cognac-

Grigio-