Ventile

[Creeping Past]

That and it's cotton. And cotton can kill you.

Also covered extensively in this thread, the Historical Hillwalking thread and, as I recall, in the Adventurer's Gear Thread. I think I also mentioned this in my first reply to you in this thread!

As is the case with guns, it's not the firearms that kill you...

 

[Dudleydoright]

Here's an anorak I picked up recently for $24. It's old. Probably US Mil as it has a military label with 'Nuttick' on it. NOT NATTICK as in the clothing research lab' though. It's a VERY simple with drawcords at hood, hem and each cuff. Classic Innuit/Eskimo chest pockets and very long with a flaring to the shape from the mid-chest to hem . Material seems to be a cotton linen rough woven ..............

It's in better shape than it looks !!

Or maybe we should start an Anorak Design thread ..............??

Cheers,
Dave

 

[Creeping Past]

Here's an anorak I picked up recently for $24. It's old. Probably US Mil as it has a military label with 'Nuttick' on it. NOT NATTICK as in the clothing research lab' though. It's a VERY simple with drawcords at hood, hem and each cuff. Classic Innuit/Eskimo chest pockets and very long with a flaring to the shape from the mid-chest to hem . Material seems to be a cotton linen rough woven ..............

[...]

Or maybe we should start an Anorak Design thread ..............??

Cheers,
Dave

What a nice find.

For me, the simpler the better. The less there is to fiddle with and get caught on gear or bits of the terrain, the better it looks to me.

As for design, I reckon this is the starting point for a basic, classic Anorak.

 

[gfirob]

What a great piece. What is really nice about it is the length. I'm not sure why they got so much shorter over the years, but the original tribal garments (unless you were in a kayak) were down about to the knees (I think).

Whether or not there is a big difference between garments made of fur to protect you from the cold or garments made of cotton (which, incidentally kills thousands of innocent people every year) to protect you from the wind, I don't know, but Eskimo designs are based on centuries (if not more) of social evolution.

I hope someone can identify its military origins. If it is military then it does suggest that at some point in time the US military was perfectly comfortable that soldiers could survive in cotton. Do you think the flared bottom has to do with making room for equipment? Does that make sense, or just freedom of movement?

If I can say so without appearing to support that trouble-maker, Fletch, I was always under the impression that cotton does kill. And it is for sure that it rains in Seattle where this was made. All the time. More even than in England. And yet they made this garment of cotton (murderous bastards).

I think one of the things that is so interesting about this Ventile thread is that suggests that there was a superior product, made of traditional material that have been in use since before the time of the Pharaohs, which languished in relative obscurity because it was never really marketed properly. Or something.

Anyway, Dave great find and thanks for posting.

Rob

 

[Dudleydoright]

Hey Rob,
Checked your pm's lately ?

I think that this anorak was around WW2. The first issue anorak used by the US Army was a reversible garment , long with fur around the hood and cuffs and a similar pocket arrangement. The second pattern was shorter with no fur at the cuffs - just buttons closing. Both had a couple of buttons at the neck too to make the opening more ventable. The one I've posted looks like it might pre-date those. Shelby Stanton's book on US Army clothing in WW2 is a great reference to what the Army was using in winter at that time. (His other books on uniforms of the Korean War and Vietnam War are also great).

I think the flaring is to allow movement.....

As to this cotton kills mularky guys. Boy have you two been brainwashed !! Cotton kills when next to the skin. You could wear a cotton windproof material with fleece or wool layers under it and you wouldn't die. Honest !! lol It's wet cotton next to the skin that saps the heat outta you. Perhaps the American Govt, realising the intellect and threshold of boredom of the average 'Yank', decided that the rest of the message after the first two words would be wasted lol lol . People die when wearing the wrong things in the wrong places. Hey, we call it Evolution and survival of the smartest ......... looks like the population of America is gonna decline
....
Yours - tongue firmly in cheek,
Dave

 

[Fletch]

We like our thinking simple here in the trackless wastes of the new world, Dave. We're also particularly fond of black-and-white, life-or-death pronouncements, especially if they can be circulated as lore and used to sell product.

On a brighter note...
I wonder if any of you WW2 raincoat freaks (excuse the expression) have ever come across a US Army raincoat or poncho made by Collegiate Manufacturing, Inc.
They were the only clothing maker or military contractor in my hometown of Ames, Iowa (actually they made pennants and stuffed animals in peacetime). They earned the "E" award for their work in 1944.

 

[BellyTank]

This is a US WW2(pretty sure, WW2 Stock no. on label) "Ski Parka",
the "Field Parka" was the shorter one.
The ski parka is wider to allow.... well, skiing and meant for wearing with the pile liner.
You won't find this exact model in Shelby Stanton's book.

A good find.

B
T

 

[gfirob]

BT, thanks for the information. Not to want to appear stupid, but why wouldn’t’ a ski parka be white? Wouldn’t a soldier in an olive-drab parka stand out in the snow like a great big target? This is not to question your identification, but just as a point of curiosity.

And Dave, I might point out that you are only hearing from the guys who wore wool under cotton, got wet and survived because the ones that wore wool under the cotton, got wet and died didn’t report in, because they were dead. So your sample is skewed, making you believe this dangerous British myth.

I rest my case…

 

[nobodyspecial]

Wearing cotton long underwear in the bush is a great way to earn a Darwin Award.

 

[Dudleydoright]

BT, thanks for the information. Not to want to appear stupid, but why wouldn’t’ a ski parka be white? Wouldn’t a soldier in an olive-drab parka stand out in the snow like a great big target? This is not to question your identification, but just as a point of curiosity.

And Dave, I might point out that you are only hearing from the guys who wore wool under cotton, got wet and survived because the ones that wore wool under the cotton, got wet and died didn’t report in, because they were dead. So your sample is skewed, making you believe this dangerous British myth.

I rest my case…

lol lol lol
Can't fault that American logic !! Cotton kills folks - but only stupid ones !

And yes, ski parkas can be green as well as white. All white only works in flat open areas where there is little change in light - and even then, if your kit is off-white you'll stand out. In wooded areas a mix of white and green works well. The Germans go for a reversible snow suit that goes from all white to white with large starbursts of green on it. We Brits (being cheap minded) tend to wear white overtrousers trousers with the DPM smock as the legs get lost in the ground snow but the camo upper body goes well with the trees.

In WW2 the US Army used reversible anoraks and trousers.

Dave

 

[BellyTank]

Some Googling will unearth Anorak/Ventile information on other, more
specialist message boards. Of particular interest are those message boards about winter trekking, snow-shoeing, etc-

Here's an interesting article about cold weather clothing, with some
information about cotton Anoraks and what makes Hi-Tech fabrics useless
in cold:

http://wintertrekking.com/index.php?action=article_view&a_id=28

-and a thread about "Inuit Anoraks" from the same board:

http://wintertrekking.com/index.php?topic=672.0

There's quite a lot out there-

B
T

 

[H.Johnson]

And there is a family of similarly-designed US Navy anoraks but with lace-up necks and different pockets, in a Macintosh-like rubberised canvas.

This is a US WW2(pretty sure, WW2 Stock no. on label) "Ski Parka",
the "Field Parka" was the shorter one.
The ski parka is wider to allow.... well, skiing and meant for wearing with the pile liner.
You won't find this exact model in Shelby Stanton's book.

A good find.

B
T

 

[Dudleydoright]

There is indeed Mr J. I've had a couple but by God are they sweaty inside !! I even had Steve at Pegasus make me up a paddling anorak like the WW2 ones in an original vintage rubberized cotton. Very stiff and WAY too hot so I let it go on Ebay. They also tended to be a bit too short in the back as they were meant to be worn in conjunction with high waisted / braced 'dungarees' in the same material. Best left for waterborne activities ....

Dave

 

[H.Johnson]

Dave

Same reason I let go my first pattern Smock, Canoeist (a.k.a. 'SBS Smock' in BS language).

There is indeed Mr J. I've had a couple but by God are they sweaty inside !! I even had Steve at Pegasus make me up a paddling anorak like the WW2 ones in an original vintage rubberized cotton. Very stiff and WAY too hot so I let it go on Ebay. They also tended to be a bit too short in the back as they were meant to be worn in conjunction with high waisted / braced 'dungarees' in the same material. Best left for waterborne activities ....

Dave

 

[gfirob]

I was wrong...

OK, after reading BT’s excellent links and all the rest of the British information here, it looks like the “Cotton Kills” idea (which every American Boy Scout knows to be true”) is a tissue of lies. Hard to believe that we could be so wrong headed, but we also believe that world history began in 1776.

BT, I think the unlined Empire Canvas Arctic Anorak really looks great (even at $425 for the version with Coyote fur hood ruff) and the various northern Canadian lined anoraks (like the Skoocum) at $895 Canadian look great. There was also this nice comment about fur anoraks in one of the posts you linked to:

“The absolute best clothing for deep cold is, in my opinion, made of fall-killed caribou skin. There is just nothing like it. It seems to somehow adjust to your level of activity so that you are at a perfect temperature over a wide range of activity level. There is no doubt in my mind that the Arctic would have been basically uninhabitable without this material. It is still fairly widely used but of course less so than it used to be. It is all hand sewn and requires a fair bit of maintenance. I made a pair of pants once and it was a lot of work. Another thing: if you wear caribou skin you get caribou hair in absolutely everything you eat or drink. Just have to accept it...”

These would have been the kind of thing Amundsen and his boys wore.

I wonder if Empire Canvas would make a parka with Ventile, if you could find some? That would be a serious garment. I like their pattern.

The guy writing the Canadian site wintertrekking.com had heard of Ventile but never seen any. But his feeling was that unlined cotton anoraks would do fine in the serious cold they have up there in the way snowy north (though the inuit seem to prefer to make them lined, if I read that correctly).

So I certainly stand corrected and thanks to you all for the fascinating thread.

Rob

 

[BellyTank]

Swedish Anoraks and more links-

You're welcome-
Empire Canvas, et al-
$425 and $895 is a lot of money for a cotton Anorak.
$20, or less should get you an old Swedish Army Anorak, which is basically
a long, simple, heavy cotton anorak, with pockets and a large hood- basically what the new/traditional Anoraks are but at a fraction of the cost.
I don't think the Empire one claims to be made from any kind of miracle cotton cloth.

The Swedish Anoraks are available(hopefully, still) as a proper "pullover" but there is an earlier and later model- m40 and m60, both vitually the same but the earlier one sometimes lacks a waist draw-cord and the later one "may" sometimes be a blend, or is actually quite waterproof, whether it is treated, or not. The earlier one, in my experience, is not so water resistant. There is also (watch out) the m62, which is different- a button-through coat, in a similar style but it is not such a useful garment in my experience, due to it being quite voluminous and having difficult, low-slung armpits, without any gusseting, or allowance for movement. The cloth, however, seems quite water repellent!

Now my descriptions of these garments, especially the first two "Anoraks",
m40 and m60, could be incorrect- maybe it is not a clear-cut case, as to which is made from cotton, or which has a more water repellent cloth.

Although I live in Sweden and am aware of most surplus store offerings,
I haven't seen so many of these Anoraks around recently- gone to Europe and the US, it seems.

These Swedish Anoraks do lend themselves well to modification and over-dyeing.

Some links to other Bushcraft and Wintery message board threads
where the Swedish Anoraks are mentioned, with positive comments:

http://www.bushcraftliving.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3168

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2721&highlight=swedish+snow+smock

There are more to be found...

...and look at the price of this offering, as an inexpensive Anorak!
http://www.titanproducts.co.uk/new-titan--retro-hooded-ultra-heavyweight-cotton-smock-153-p.asp

An interesting contribution on dressing for cold weather (down to -30C)
and layering with traditional clothing:

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50528


B
T

 

[Creeping Past]

You're welcome-
Empire Canvas, et al-
$425 and $895 is a lot of money for a cotton Anorak.
$20, or less should get you an old Swedish Army Anorak, which is basically
a long, simple, heavy cotton anorak, with pockets and a large hood- basically what the new/traditional Anoraks are but at a fraction of the cost.

As you say, there's quite a bit of internet talk about this subject. For instance, some Canadians here like the Swedish anoraks.

 

[BellyTank]

Ah, yes, the one I neglected to link to...
Thanks, Creeping.

You have one(maybe 2?)of the Swedish, no?
If so, seen any use?

We have a balmy -10C here this morning and a little breeze,
I'm off to the forest with mine.



B
T

 

[Creeping Past]

Ah, yes, the one I neglected to link to...
Thanks, Creeping.

You have one(maybe 2?)of the Swedish, no?
If so, seen any use?

We have a balmy -10C here this morning and a little breeze,
I'm off to the forest with mine.

B
T

A forest trip sounds just perfect. It's damp and foggy in London and I had a dream of hills and fresh air last night...

I've a couple of those Swedish änoraks/smöcks. The older one's heavily used, more cottoney and less canvasy (if you get my drift) and less tight woven than the newer one, which looks unissued. The latter has khaki canvas epaulettes. Both are very fine garments. I've used both and they get soaked through in heavy rain, but leave only a light dew on a sweater worn underneath.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I've worn them in snow and biting wind and they work well.

 

[H.Johnson]

Swedish anoraks and Ventile-type stuff

I was in London with BK last week and in Spitalfields market we examined a private purchase (labelled) version of the Swedish Army anorak in a much finer fabric than the surplus versions I have examined - without a magnifying glass it would have passed for one of the Ventile-type cottons.

The only problem (for me) with the Swedish Army anoraks is the size. I know they are supposed to be loose fitting, but I haven't seen one less than an XXXXL!

As an aside, my latest Ventile-type clothing experiment (a removable Ventile-type drop liner under a Ventile-type British Army wind smock) proved itself this weekend in ideal conditions - day-long rain at one or two degrees above freezing. Just the sort of thing that Ventile(R) doesn't handle well.

I can report that the undershirt improved the performance of the smock noticeably. I would estimate that it now rivals the wet-weather performance of a proprietary double-layer Ventile smock and has the advantage that the two garments can be worn separately and packed into two pockets or belt pouches when not being worn. There was still some leak-through by absorption but not much compared to the outer layer on its own. And I still haven't spent 20 GBP. And it's all vintage...

A friend who was with me suggested that the leak-through by transfer between the two layers of cotton could be improved even more by wearing another layer between the two water resistant layers. This is the principle of a mesh layer between two layers of Ventile(R) that Synergy and others used to use. OK, but that's another thing to pack away. Nevertheless, I'm going to try it next week-end, using a WW2 string vest as the intermediate layer.

I'll keep you posted.