Veg v. Chrome Tanning

[Superfluous]

There are numerous studies by which it is established that combination tan is will produce better quality leather than chrome and inferior quality to veg. tanned and as a result cheaper to buy.

Please post links to these studies.

Similarly, when you buy your Giorgio Armani suit, I take it you expect to get whole wool, you don't just go for polyester (even if you wanted they don't have any).

http://www.ebay.com/gds/Guide-to-Bu...Collezioni-Menswear-/10000000016725038/g.html

"Myth: 'Armani NEVER uses polyester...if it has polyester in it, it's fake!'
Reality: This is FALSE. In fact, this couldn't be further from the truth. Armani Collezioni garments are made in a wide variety of fabric blends. Many of their suits are made with 100% polyester or other man-made fabrics.

Giorgio Armani himself prefers polyester blends, as they drape better over the body. In an article from Wall Street Journal:

'Giorgio Armani, an early adopter of the new synthetics, says he now prefers polyesters to natural fabrics such as linen, which wrinkles. The Italian designer, who himself enjoys wearing cashmere-and-polyester blend jackets, urges men to wear blends for better fit and elasticity.'"

 

[andyfalzon]

You will notice that Armani has various lines including Armani Collezioni which is much cheaper than the premier line 'Giorgio Armani', in order to appeal to lower budget audiences. Even in Emporio Armani which is lower than 'Giorgio' everything is wool.
Look here:
http://www.armani.com/gb/emporioarmani/men/suits

In the Armani Collezioni collection from all suits only one is not wool
http://www.armani.com/gb/armanicollezioni/men/suits

We are returning to a "whether the earth is flat or round" debate. These things are long established. Everybody knows wool is better and as a result more expensive. Ask your local tailor.

 

[GregO]

The word 'blend' itself is a tell tale. From dog races to precious metals, a 'blend' is always lesser quality (and cheaper) than 'pure'.

Really? That may come as a shock to all of us who love a good bordeaux (which, as we all know, is a blend of various grape varietals). I usually try to remind myself not to use words like "always."

That said, I guess what I am left wondering is this -- will the average Joe really be able to appreciate the "superiority" of a veg tanned piece over a high quality combination tanned piece? I know a bit about wine, but the nuances in "quality" between an epic first growth bordeaux (at, say, $1000+ a bottle) and a first-rate non-first growth producer (at, say, $500 a bottle) are often not apparant to me. I wonder if the same applies to leather goods.

And I should probably mention that I really like my Horween combination tanned steer hide jacket.

 

[Seb Lucas]

lol Grego, you may have started another one of those amusing debates about what is best for us.

 

[thor]

Let's forget dog breeds, wine and Italian suits for a moment and get back to the original topic: leather! I've learned alot from the all the knowledgable people on TFL and Andy has put out some good general info on leather (sourcing hides, tanning, etc).
If the premier leather jacket makers like GW, Eastman, Real McCoys, Aero and BK all utilize veg-tanned leather, it must be very high quality stuff. Maybe time will tell about these new breeds (no pun intended) of combination tanned leather.

 

[Superfluous]

You will notice that Armani has various lines including Armani Collezioni which is much cheaper than the premier line 'Giorgio Armani'

Not that it matters, but the "premier" GA line is their Black Label, and GA uses polyester in its Black Label suits.

Shifting back to the purpose of this thread, you wrote:

There are numerous studies by which it is established that combination tan is will produce better quality leather than chrome and inferior quality to veg. tanned and as a result cheaper to buy.

I asked to to post links to the "numerous studies" (emphasis added). You ignored my request. Given that this is the exact subject matter of this thread, and critically important to this discussion, I will ask again: Please post links to the "numerous studies" (or, if no links exist, please scan and post the studies). I would love to read the results of these studies. I suspect others here would also read these studies with great interest.

If the premier leather jacket makers like GW, Eastman, Real McCoys, Aero and BK all utilize veg-tanned leather, it must be very high quality stuff.

As stated earlier in this thread, I completely agree. In fact, I have recently emphasized veg tanned leather over combo and chrome tanned leather in my personal pursuit of new pieces. One of the reasons I started this thread was to discern whether my recent emphasis on veg tanned leather is objectively appropriate/reasonable. Therefore, I agree with Andy's conclusion. What I disagree with is Andy's logic; namely, that any combination of pure elements is necessarily and inherently inferior, and that the higher price of veg tanned leather is compelling evidence of its superiority. Hence the reason I have asked twice for the "numerous studies" referenced by Andy.

 

[handymike]

I like both types! I have vegi tanned boots and backpack that have held up well and look even better after 20 years of wear. I also have what I assume is a chrome tanned Horsehide jacket from the 40s. The jacket is very strong and the color hasn't changed much- except where it's been rubbed like edges and elbows. I think each one has it's place.

 

[Ishmael]

Dr H with all due respect sir, your blended polymers may be better but I don't want them in my coffee instead of sugar, so to speak.

Say it ain't so. The philosopher of purity. The sage of sanctity. Put's.........................sugar in his coffee. :eusa_doh:

 

[Tomasso]

Let's forget dog breeds, wine and Italian suits for a moment.......

Man, you're no fun.

 

[andyfalzon]

All comments and opinions above are valuable and respected. The Armani black label is the same as Giorgio Armani line which are made to measure suits and thus you get to choose what fabric they will use.

Regarding the studies, I don't have one handy right now. In short, it's what you said. Combi tan is the best blend of durability and aesthetics but with less durability than chrome and less aesthetics than veg. (and more aesthetics than chrome)

I used the dogs and gold examples to make an emphasis in my point. It was a generalized statement. I don't say that any pure element in the world is better that a combination of other elements.

However, there is no substitute for the real thing, that's why we all want your wool 100% tartan lining and all cotton shirt or lining for your jacket.

Chrome tan, even combination tan may have qualities that are better than vegetable tanned. Durability is one example. But the natural tanning agents and all ingredients used in veg. tanning are more expensive and coupled with the longer time of production result in a more expensive product. This veg. tanned leather is certainly more beautiful aesthetically, more natural and eco-friendly and as such more valuable than chrome/combi tanned. Otherwise it would be pointless for the tanneries to bother making it.

Prices reflect quality and the market is efficient so prices are well adjusted according to supply/demand.

So, when we say veg. tanned is higher quality, we mean "more valuable", not more durable etc.
Pleather could be more durable and more water resistant than real leather, but does that make it higher quality?
I don't think so.

Further regarding aesthetics, using modern technology tanneries can make cowhide look like crocodile skin and you will not be able to tell the difference from the real thing. But of course, although it has the same aesthetics as the real thing it is priced far lower because it isn't natural.

 

[Deacon211]

Well, I don't necessarily have a dog (mine are mixed breeds BTW ) in this fight, this is what I find so confusingly fascinating about this discussion.

When I placed my GW order for a 422, I was told that the jacket would be chrome tanned and nylon threaded. The chrome tanning seems in keeping with JC's assertion earlier in this thread that he had only seen mil specs for chrome, though he doesn't explicitly state which jackets he was referring to. I actually asked him about the nylon thread, since I had also heard about the superiority of cotton thread and he wrote back that nylon was not only accurate for the 422, but also that it had been deemed preferable to cotton at the time (can't remember the reason).

On the other hand, Moore's site states that the true beauty of the 422 was its richly VEG tanned goatskin.

So, while I don't dispute Andy's position that veg tanned leather is more eco friendly and perhaps more beautiful (though that is by its nature a subjective term), it's probably only fair to point out that not all of the top end repro makers (of which Andy and John are surely two) use veg tanned leather all of the time.

As for which is more historic, I am still not entirely sure I know...though that is perhaps outside the scope of the OP's original question.

Deacon

 

[hpalapdog]

When I placed my GW order for a 422, I was told that the jacket would be chrome tanned and nylon threaded. The chrome tanning seems in keeping with JC's assertion earlier in this thread that he had only seen mil specs for chrome, though he doesn't explicitly state which jackets he was referring to. I actually asked him about the nylon thread, since I had also heard about the superiority of cotton thread and he wrote back that nylon was not only accurate for the 422, but also that it had been deemed preferable to cotton at the time (can't remember the reason).

It's easy to tell nylon thread. Put a match to a lose end and it melts into a ball. Cotton doesn't. Both wool and cotton have a distinctive burnt smell. Poly cotton thread is harder to distinguish. A loupe helps. The 2 original G&F m-422a jackets I had were cotton. The later Foster G-1 from 1954 nylon.

 

[Deacon211]

It's easy to tell nylon thread. Put a match to a lose end and it melts into a ball. Cotton doesn't. Both wool and cotton have a distinctive burnt smell. Poly cotton thread is harder to distinguish. A loupe helps. The 2 original G&F m-422a jackets I had were cotton. The later Foster G-1 from 1954 nylon.

Thanks HPA,

I wasn't so much trying to figure out how to tell the difference (but that's good to know). I was just pointing out that some of the top end makers still use chrome hides and nylon thread.

Again, I'm just coming to terms with the fact that I will likely never know what's truly historic for 422s/early G-1s.

I've heard every combination of chrome and veg, cotton and nylon, and all from people who know their jackets.

Maybe if the answer was ever known, the universe would end.

Deacon

 

[hpalapdog]

Deacon, have a read

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/gwmonarchm422_images3.html

 

[thor]

It could be like the long-rumored and just recently proven original A-2 makers using steerhide instead of the mil-spec horsehide (later goatskin).
Perhaps the M-422/a leather jackets were supposed to be chrome-tanned and utilize nylon thread but manufacturers used whatever was on hand? The first widespread use of nylon thread was around 1939 so it's doubtful that the earliest jacket contractors (Willis and Geiger or Switlik) had access to large supplies of nylon thread for use in the first M-422 jackets (1940).
Wouldn't be the first time a government contractor took liberties with mil-specs!

 

[Deacon211]

Deacon, have a read

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/gwmonarchm422_images3.html

LOVE IT! I'll take two!

Seriously though, that's very interesting. Like I said earlier, I have a 422 (not the Monarch) on order and was sent a lovely piece of leather that I was informed was chrome. Also, if you go onto the order form, the drop down for thread has two listings for USN jackets that both say nylon thread, which is what prompted me to ask JC originally.

Personally, as I'm willing to go around my house, hunting moths with a fly swatter (I guess that would make it a "moth swatter") and accepting the dreaded "floppy cuffs" of the single layer knit in pursuit of wearing what my predecessor Marines had worn, I'd like to go for the full Monty of having everything as close to the original as possible, be that chrome or veg, cotton or nylon.

It's not an earth shaking issue, but entertaining . Just when you sit back and bask in the glory of knowing that you are getting the real deal, you read something contrary and find yourself going

D'oh!

 

[Deacon211]

It could be like the long-rumored and just recently proven original A-2 makers using steerhide instead of the mil-spec horsehide (later goatskin).
Perhaps the M-422/a leather jackets were supposed to be chrome-tanned and utilize nylon thread but manufacturers used whatever was on hand? The first widespread use of nylon thread was around 1939 so it's doubtful that the earliest jacket contractors (Willis and Geiger or Switlik) had access to large supplies of nylon thread for use in the first M-422 jackets (1940).
Wouldn't be the first time a government contractor took liberties with mil-specs!

I could totally see this being the case.

Fascinating stuff.

Deacon

 

[thor]

Hey Deacon, if you're getting an m-422 from JC and its not the Monarch, what is it? On the GW website I only see an AN-6552 Bogen listed. Unless its something new or custom? Just wondering...

 

[Deacon211]

John has several designs "in progress" that we corresponded about. I don't want to spill any beans here, so I'll send via PM.

I'm sure anyone else interested could just ask him directly and I believe he is working on updating his website as well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[thor]

Aye aye Deacon, totally understand. Standing by.