Veg v. Chrome Tanning

[alsendk]

We can only imagine the smell inside the room of your first picture. A butchery it is. India ?

 

[dnjan]

one issue BTTs excellent and informative post doesn't address is the (frequently alleged) inability of veg tanned leather to resist water. I've read in several places that veg tanned doesn't repel water as well as chromed, and even worse, that it stains if you wear it in the wet. So is this also something to which the chicken dinner analogy applies? i.e. does this also depend on what veg tanned hide and from where? I've always suspected it is a myth at worst, exaggeration at best, but I'd dearly like to know for sure.

I'm actually thinking of buying a veg tanned jacket and I definitely need to wear it in the rain!

Speaking not as a leather jacket owner, but rather as someone who used to do leather tooling in the past:

The leather used for tooling must be vegetable tanned. To tool leather you need to get it wet, and then allow it to partially dry before tooling. Otherwise it won't hold the design you stamp/force into it. Chrome-tanned leather does not absorb water properly for leather tooling.
After tooling we would apply surface finishes to help protect the leather, but it could still easily stain.

 

[Ishmael]

I am sorry but when I hear the term "blend" this comparison comes to mind:

Blended Whisky price GBP 20

vs

Single Malt 36 years old, price GBP 1450

Thanks so much for telling us about your word associations. Really fascinating stuff.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Yeah..we get very similar stuff over on the VLJ, Ishmael.
HD

 

[Sloan1874]

Could be worse, you could have dared to suggest (very politely) on the VLJ that somebody's sleeves on their Aeronaut were a bit on the short side, and then found the post removed at a later date. Can't imagine why that happened...

 

[Stearmen]

Hi hpalapdog; are you certain that WWII USN goatskin was sourced from India? I would imagine that back then, the military would be especially keen to keep all facets of military clothing procurement and manufacturing domestic.
Just wondering....

I was just reading in Derek Nelson and Dave Parsons book, Hell Bent For Leather, there was the roomer that all prewar G1 goatskin was procured in Persia and Afghanistan, then shipped through India. Apparently, most scholars, including the two afore mentioned gentlemen agree, that the Navy was not in the import business. They also state, horse hide is fifth on the durability scale, goat is second, behind Kangaroo. Thats why the navy picked it, plus, they had a lot less pilots pre war to fit.

 

[thor]

"The Berry Amendment (USC, Title 10, Section 2533a), requires the Department of Defense to give preference in procurement to domestically produced, manufactured, or home-grown products, most notably food, clothing, fabrics, and specialty metals. Congress originally passed domestic source restrictions as part of the 1941 Fifth Supplemental DOD Appropriations Act in order to protect the domestic industrial base in the time of war. The Defense Federal Acquisition Regulation Supplement (DFARS) was amended to include exceptions for the acquisition of food, specialty metals, and hand or measuring tools when needed to support contingency operations or when the use of other-than-competitive procedures is based on an unusual and compelling urgency."

I knew there was some such government directive re domestic procurement for military goods; of course there's always ways around these regulations (such as the "compelling urgency" phrase).
I suppose the whole outsourcing debate ties into this as well.

With military aircraft, certain components can be foreign-built and in at least two cases (the British Harrier jet and the French Dauphin helicopter), the US became a licensed builder of a foreign made aircraft.

Of course, a little off topic (and much more complicated then just chrome v veg tanning or the source of goatskin for WWII Navy flight jackets).

Thanks all for the great info, as always.

 

[andyfalzon]

Ishmael, Yasui-san is entitled to his opinion as much as I am (and everyone else of course) Yes, it's true the combination tanned has good aesthetics and durability. But it's lesser quality than veg. tanned. That's what I am saying. It's a well known fact all over the leather industry. Can't argue with that. The word 'blend' itself is a tell tale. From dog races to precious metals, a 'blend' is always lesser quality (and cheaper) than 'pure'.

Also, to quote the Leather chemists of America

Combination-tanned: Formerly tanned with a blend of vegetable extracts. Today tanned with two or more types of tanning materials, such as chromium compounds and vegetable extracts, or chromium compounds and synthetic tannins.

Source: https://www.leatherchemists.org/dictionary.asp

You see it's not even necessarily done with vegetable extracts anymore.

Those synthetic tanning agents do not occur naturally in the environment, but are manufactured using chemicals. Synthetic tanning agents like formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, phenols, uric acid and its derivatives as well as acrylates are highly effective in the tanning process.

 

[Retromoto]

Andy,
I've a passion for good espresso and this is one field where a blend can be a great thing........Back to tanning, I'm pretty alert when it come to chemicals and how they're used in different industries. After perusing this thread, I doubt I'll ever look at a leather item the same way and questions will abound!
Thanks for the education........:eusa_clap
Retromoto

The word 'blend' itself is a tell tale. From dog races to precious metals, a 'blend' is always lesser quality (and cheaper) than 'pure'.

Also, to quote the Leather chemists of America



Source: https://www.leatherchemists.org/dictionary.asp

You see it's not even necessarily done with vegetable extracts anymore.

Those synthetic tanning agents do not occur naturally in the environment, but are manufactured using chemicals. Synthetic tanning agents like formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, phenols, uric acid and its derivatives as well as acrylates are highly effective in the tanning process.

 

[Dickie Teenie]

One can find turn of the century thru the 20's leather manuals at Archive.org just do a search for leather...they also have a nice collection of pre and WW2 photos.

 

[tropicalbob]

Many thanks to WB for his photos of the Indian tannery. I saw an article some time ago that spoke of London's history, and that, under the Romans, the city was essentially one large tannery and dumped its by-products directly into the Thames. I imagine that the conditions were probably not too different from those that can be seen in the photos. The picture of the man dumping the pile of what looks like entrails onto the floor of the factory really puts the discussion of the tanning process into a different light, at least for me.

 

[hpalapdog]

With military aircraft, certain components can be foreign-built and in at least two cases (the British Harrier jet and the French Dauphin helicopter), the US became a licensed builder of a foreign made aircraft.

Here's another one including the engines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_B-57_Canberra

Chaz HPA can probably answer the Indian sourced goatskin question with some authority.

 

[Deacon211]

Actually, the AV-8B Harrier II is primarily a US re-design. Hawker Siddeley designed and built the AV-8A and the US bought its few Harriers from them. British Aerospace was initially in on a Harrier redesign, but bailed when they decided to go their own way, mostly due to budgetary concerns. When the BA "Tin Wing Harrier" fell through, they came back to McDonnell Douglas, who had redesigned (read rebuilt) the Harrier for the Marines, and jumped back onboard the project...unfortunately now as a subcontractor.

The T-45 Goshawk is a similar jointly developed aircraft. A British Hawk, beaten into a carrier based trainer.

Completely irrelevant and not at all contrary to Thor's point, buy hey....she was my baby!

I'd love to hear from JC or Chaz on the 422 question too.

Although, since it apparently seems difficult to tell the difference between the two processes by eye, maybe it just doesn't matter that much

Deacon

 

[Ishmael]

The word 'blend' itself is a tell tale. From dog races to precious metals, a 'blend' is always lesser quality (and cheaper) than 'pure'.

If you go back to my original post, you'll see I used the term "blend" to refer to a synthesis of two adjectival qualities (i.e. durability and aesthetics) and not to refer to a blend of two physical things. Subtle but important difference, and one easily missed by someone willing to read their own conclusions into others statements.

And, for what it's worth, you're analogy of combination tanned leather with dogs and precious metals is pure silliness.

 

[Dr H]

Furthermore, a blend is not always inferior, nor a compromise. I could cite many examples of polymer blends that offer superior qualities to the 'pure' homopolymers.

 

[Ishmael]

Fine point Dr. H. Very true and widely applicable.

Another problem with these "falz" statements is that their author has let price stand in for quality. While prices can be objectively determined in the market, and are determined by rarity (i.e. precious metals), quality is not. The only criteria for quality is "fit for purpose" and thus quality is, in the end, up to the subjective eye's of the beholder/user.

Who's to say a pure breed is higher quality than a half? Does this also apply to humans? Is my "half" son of lesser quality?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I'll take JC's posts about various leather types as reliable rather than a companies continuous self grandiose attempt that their product and leather choice is far superior to all others. It gets old and is always leading in that direction or lingering in the background of their posted opinions.
HD

 

[Tomasso]

For what it's worth, all the elite men's shoe makers use veg tanned leather. As does Hermès ( worlds preeminent leather maker) on everything from saddles to jackets to bags to shoes (John Lobb.) In the last decade they have acquired several of the finest tanneries in France and Italy in order to assure the supply of top quality hides, which were were becoming scarce and expensive. I read somewhere that today less than five percent of the worlds tanneries use the veg tanning process because of its high cost and inability to mask imperfections in the hides.

 

[thor]

Many thanks to WB for his photos of the Indian tannery. I saw an article some time ago that spoke of London's history, and that, under the Romans, the city was essentially one large tannery and dumped its by-products directly into the Thames. I imagine that the conditions were probably not too different from those that can be seen in the photos. The picture of the man dumping the pile of what looks like entrails onto the floor of the factory really puts the discussion of the tanning process into a different light, at least for me.

It wasn't just in India or third world countries where animal carcasses were rendered for industrial use; NYC had the infamous (and aptly named) Dead Horse Bay in Brooklyn:

"Dead Horse Bay sits at the western edge of a marshland once dotted by more than two dozen horse-rendering plants, fish oil factories and garbage incinerators. From the 1850s until the 1930s, the carcasses of dead horses and other animals from New York City streets were used to manufacture glue, fertilizer and other products at the site. The chopped-up, boiled bones were later dumped into the water. The squalid bay, then accessible only by boat, was reviled for the putrid fumes that hung overhead."

Sad end to those noble animals, indeed.

 

[andyfalzon]

Thank you all for you comments.

Ishmael, your blend refers to synthesis of quality and durability as you say but also inevitably to a blend of tannages. Combination tan IS a blend of tannages. I am afraid you cannot change the facts. There are numerous studies by which it is established that combination tan is will produce better quality leather than chrome and inferior quality to veg. tanned and as a result cheaper to buy.

You simply cannot deny the truth and disagree with the status quo of things and tell us that chemically produced products are better quality than natural.

What is wrong with my analogy? Everyone will prefer (and pay more) for a pure breed dog than a ba***rd dog. Everyone will pay more for 21k (or even 18k gold) than 14k gold. If they can afford that is.

Dr H with all due respect sir, your blended polymers may be better but I don't want them in my coffee instead of sugar, so to speak.
The discussion here is natural vs chemical and pure vs blended in the context of items available to the general public and especially items worn by individuals i.e. that may come in contact with the wearers skin. If you can give examples of polymers in the said context, please let us know.

And yes, quality and rarity should both determine price. Ishmael, when you buy your Freewheelers jacket for example you expect the lining to be 100% cotton or wool, you don't want polyester or some poly-cotton/wool blend. Why? Because natural IS better quality (and more expensive). You don't want the cheapo blend. Who does? I haven't seen anyone here bragging about his nice poly-cotton or poly-wool blend lining (Correct me if I 'm wrong).

Nylon thread is much stronger than cotton thread i.e. more "fit for purpose" but you don't want that on your jacket either. You want cotton, you want quality. So does everybody else. So please don't give me this non-sense. Also, do you know the price difference between nylon and cotton thread?

Hoosier, most of (if not all) the high end makers, namely GW, ELC, THE FEW, RM etc. use veg tanned leather because it IS better quality, so I am not talking only about BK when defending veg. tanned. BK offers also chrome tanned steerhide/horsehide but I am not gonna lie to you and tell you it's better or equal quality to veg. tanned, no matter how well it will fit your purpose.

I believe that you are a man who can understand quality and don't pour Coke into your single malt whisky because "it tastes better".
Similarly, when you buy your Giorgio Armani suit, I take it you expect to get whole wool, you don't just go for polyester (even if you wanted they don't have any).

So there you have it, I gave you real world examples with cotton, wool and blend linings. I believe you all prefer your Buzz Ricksons chambray shirt or officers' khakis to be 100% cotton and not something else. Well, it's the same with leathers. Natural is better, natural wins. And it's more expensive 'cause it should be.

The question readers of this forum should be asking themselves is why some vendors sell cheaper quality goods at the same price as others sell the highest quality goods. Something's wrong there isn't it?

Hey friend, I sell my nice made in China 55/45 Poly/Wool Tartan at GBP 50, the same price as LOCHCARRON sells his 100% wool. Mine is better bro, more durable, will not shirk if wet. You wont find any better. It's the best of both worlds (durability and aesthetics) Come on man, buy from me.

So how would you respond to that?