USN M422 jackets were veg or chrome tanned? The ultimate test - pictorial

[andyfalzon]

This is a simple test to establish whether M422 jackets were chrome or veg tanned.
As far as I know from some documentation we have seen and I can post later, if necessary, they were chrome tanned.
The test today will not answer the question, but will show you how to find the answer yourselves.
All you need is an a piece of leather from the original jacket.
Of course you are not going to ruin the jacket to get a piece out of it so the best way is to use the leather puller of the zipper which presumably is made from the same leather as the jacket.

We do not have an original USN jacket right now so I will show how the experiment basically works.

We have 2 strips of leather which will play the role of the leather puller.

Of course, we know that the left is veg tanned and the right is chrome tanned, but it doesn't matter. We 're gonna try to prove it.

then we need this

and this

What we 're gonna do is put the leather strip (veg tanned) in the glass and pour boiling hot water in the glass

Here we go.

This would better work with a video but since have only photo camera, poured the water in the glass and here's what happens.

Immediately the leather strip shrinks

There is water in the glass but you can't see it. All this happens very fast.

We repeat the procedure with the chrome tanned.

put in the glass

pour hot boiling water

and nothing happens to it. It just swims there undisturbed

Taking both out of the glass

See? chrome tanned remains intact, veg tanned is not stable in hot water.

If you can repeat the experiment on a strip of leather taken from original WWII Navy jacket you will know the truth.

 

[thor]

Thank you Andy. Very informative.

 

[Monitor]

Well this certainly is interesting! Thank you for sharing this knowledge, Andy.

Completely unrelated, I have the exact same water boiler.

 

[BJC88]

Most impressive.

 

[ProteinNerd]

Most impressive.

Yes its amazing they both have the same water boiler!!

 

[Monitor]

Yes its amazing they both have the same water boiler!!

A mere coincidence . . ?

 

[TeeJay]

Are you sure that this depends on chrome or vegetable tanning? I would assume that one of the leather is aniline hide which means natural without waterproof finish, and the other one is pigmented leather - which has a waterproof finish. Because you an also have vegetable-tanned-pigmented leather which is waterproof, and you can have chrome-tanned-aniline-leather which would also be ruined in (hot) water.

 

[Fanch]

How might this relate to HWT that many on the FL do to their jackets?

 

[hpalapdog]

Ok, I tipped my leather sample bag out ! Various leathers collected over the years for repair patches and zip pulls.
If you visit a jacket maker make sure you check out the skip outside, it will be full of off-cuts including some with the tannery id.labels still attached.



I started with a car leather which are made to be heat and moisture proof. As expected nothing happened when I poured boiling water on. Same with Lost Worlds Horsehide.

Next Alexander jerky horsehide black on reddish brown hide. An English tanned leather that has a nice aroma that I like. Some reddish brown bleeding and a small amount of the black finish leaching off. Some curling. Good signs these for patina development. Possible veg/chrome combo tanned. Definitely not a modern straight chrome oxide.




Next Langlitz black on black cattle. Nothing happened. A leather without much character.

ELC G-1 got from a decade ago. Surprisingly nothing happened :eeek:

Current ELC m-422a goat. Yellow brown leaching, only slight signs of curl. May be a combo tanned leather.

Horween vintage brown horse. Some curling but no leaching perhaps because this is a leather with heavy fatliquoring . Combo tanned as per spec.

BK seal goat. Some curling, heavy black leeching. A bit spongy and dark for m-422 jacket use but supports BK's claims.

Aero mid-weight horse from a decade ago. This leather had the distinctive silver white stripe in the middle of the hide. Normally a sign of chrome tanning.
Nothing happened. Not the leather Aero said it was.

Vintage German jacket from the late 1940's. As above, looked chrome tanned and behaved like it was.

US Authentic goat. A type of leather widely used by the like of Flight Suits etc on mid-price lines. Nothing happened.



Conclusion: I think you probably can tell a modern straight chrome using this method. Further than that I would recommend a lab test.
No leather was harmed in this test! It dries out and apart from shrinkage can be reused.

BTW. does Gary Eastman say anything about tanning methods in his A-2 book ? He has deep pockets and could afford the test when he writes the definitive USN jacket book
http://www.blcleathertech.com/testing-services/chemical-testing.htm

 

[aswatland]

Yes Gary Eastman says that Wartime horse hide and cow hide A2s were chrome tanned. Much of the Indian goatskin used on A2s was veg tanned.

 

[hpalapdog]

Yes Gary Eastman says that Wartime horse hide and cow hide A2s were chrome tanned. Much of the Indian goatskin used on A2s was veg tanned.

Thanks for that.

Hopefully Chaz at HPA wont mind me paraphrasing a brief snippet of a conversation on m-422 jackets....

"During my many sojourns to the National Archives at their many repositories, I encountered no shortage of documents that clearly speak of various material shortages for all service branches, not the least being the various leathers used for flying cloth.......and goatskin was also mentioned as being difficult to source. As you likely know, the USA didn’t have much of a goat herd to harvest, so while I can’t say I’ve seen the proof that we purchased goatskin from India, I can’t imagine why we wouldn’t have bought from India when they had plenty of it, knew how to tan it......
Veg. tanning was employed during this time (I’ve seen these records), as well as chrome tanning, and all the GI footwear was to be chrome tanned w/ a veg re-tan. In 1943, another WPB decree via the USAAF called for a cessation of A-2 production in cowhide (this was late in the production of A-2s but would clearly have impacted the last three contracts for A-2s)....
So, I wish I could offer you a smoking gun, but all I can say is that everything logically points to veg-tanned goatskin from India being employed for USAAF and USN leather flying jackets. "

Unfortunately I don't have the original m-422 and m-422a I used to own to test.

 

[aswatland]

Although the Indian goatskin was veg tanned, the 10th March 1941 US Materiel Division Specification for goatskin was for chrome tanned goatskin.

 

[hpalapdog]

I'm pretty sure raw salted pelts were being shipped into the US and UK during the war. I've seen cargo manifests from sunk allied merchant ships.

 

[Stearmen]

I wonder if we are to fixated on the word Indian, using it in it's literal seance as to origin? On several occasions through the years, while driving, or riding motorcycles, in the Colorado Rockies, I have had to come to a stop and wait for many minutes for goat herds to cross the road, they of course, were tended by their Native American shepherds. In the 40s, that would be Indian shepherds! Would not be the first time for the mix up, just ask Columbus!

 

[aswatland]

I wonder if we are to fixated on the word Indian, using it in it's literal seance as to origin? On several occasions through the years, while driving, or riding motorcycles, in the Colorado Rockies, I have had to come to a stop and wait for many minutes for goat herds to cross the road, they of course, were tended by their Native American shepherds. In the 40s, that would be Indian shepherds! Would not be the first time for the mix up, just ask Columbus!

I am talking about goatskin that was tanned and imported from India in the War!

 

[Stearmen]

I am talking about goatskin that was tanned and imported from India in the War!

I still have not been shown any official document showing that the US Navy purchased their goat skin from India, or any other foreign country. If they did, there is a paper trail, in triplicate.