US Caste System and Leather Jackets

[Trouser Bark]

I enjoy wearing utility and m/c oriented leather jackets and have a thick hide of my own when it comes to other people's opinion of what I happen to like.

In conversation w/ a business associate recently he made an unusual remark that I'd never pondered before. Specifically he referred to something akin to caste and implied that wearing a leather jacket was an outward indication that the wearer was somehow of lesser social status than he and apparently others.

I've never noticed that before and don't see the world in that way (I'm in the US and so is he) but I wonder... have you noticed anything similar?

 

[zebedee]

No, but I am the only person I am aware of at work that has a collection of leather jackets. The only other people who wear them are women and they go for All Saints lambskin jackets.

Generally, if you're wearing 1000 USD+ jackets, you've sort of won if expense were the factor. Subculturally, leather is a 'thing', but most of us (as in people who wear leather jackets) probably prefer the wearing to bothering what other people might think (or we're inured to it or whatever we derive from the jackets outweighs the importance we give to fashion, others' opinions, jibes, etc.).

There are probably 'emergency' circumstances where attire advice can/should be given (I've told expat colleagues to wear ties before if they were about to get a down-dressing: with Chinese employers, ties are unusual and 'soften' the problem by potentially reminding the employer that you are foreign and your mistake is at least partly due to your foreign-ness) but usually I let people alone. I never comment on what expat women are wearing (ever), although Asian colleagues appreciate positive comments.

I'm now in my mid-forties and started to realise a few years ago that turning over what I think others might think isn't a good use of mental energy. Unless they can fire you or will leave you for what you're wearing, the views of others only have as much importance as you attach to them. Conform if not doing so will get you booted, but otherwise, do whatever you like. I wear suits to work most days but in cold weather I wear a leather jacket over a formal shirt; colleagues passed negative comments twice over several years: one guy I just told that I really liked the given jacket and the other one I ignored for a bit, then looked down at his feet and said: 'My shoes are also handmade. Would you like the man's card?'

 

[Trouser Bark]

Haha... agreed.

In our twenties people think others are talking about us.

In our thirties we decide not to be bothered by whatever they're thinking.

In our forties we realize they never were.

 

[zebedee]

Haha... agreed.

In our twenties people think others are talking about us.

In our thirties we decide not to be bothered by whatever they're thinking.

In our forties we realize they never were.

I had a good buddy who was an intervention psychologist in crises and, as he explained to me when I was worried about what I might have said/done while thoroughly drunk one evening, most people are focused on what kind of a time they're having, not what kind of time you're having. We often give too much time to what other people think. Never take criticism from a person you wouldn't ask for advice

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

Just wondering what rock your brahmin associate lives under.
Based on the US caste system of $$$, these guys have no business being anywhere near a leather jacket

Not trying to fanboy billionaires here, but people from all walks of life can wear a leather jacket. At this point, it's more of a style choice.

 

[handymike]

The whole premise is BS…wear what you want & do it confidently!

 

[Trouser Bark]

Just wondering what rock your brahmin associate lives under.

65YO Electrical Engineer. You'd find him somewhere on the spectrum and he's inclined to say what he thinks and directly. I've never pondered that some may define socio-economic status by your choice of jacket but I think it's interesting that he and perhaps others may.

 

[Bennarion]

There are different types of leather jackets. You can even match it to a suit and look cool. The main thing is to combine harmony. Wear something that only you enjoy and you will be happy.

 

[Will Zach]

Not only you're in the lower caste by wearing a leather jacket, but you also may get punched in the face at a bar, unprovoked. Lose-lose.

 

[Viking752]

I enjoy wearing utility and m/c oriented leather jackets and have a thick hide of my own when it comes to other people's opinion of what I happen to like.

In conversation w/ a business associate recently he made an unusual remark that I'd never pondered before. Specifically he referred to something akin to caste and implied that wearing a leather jacket was an outward indication that the wearer was somehow of lesser social status than he and apparently others.

I've never noticed that before and don't see the world in that way (I'm in the US and so is he) but I wonder... have you noticed anything similar?

The only logical conclusion to this interaction was a well placed throat punch.

 

[El Marro]

One of the wealthiest men I know is always wearing a white t shirt and old ratty blue jeans. I remember the first time I met him I thought that he might be living in a car, not realizing that he owned several cars, several houses, a few apartment buildings, and commercial property as well.
The one and only time I ever saw him in a suit and tie I knew instantly that he had been to a funeral that day, I asked him and he confirmed thar he had.
it was a good lesson for me on judging someone by their appearance and one that your coworker could stand to learn as well.

 

[rattlesnake501]

65YO Electrical Engineer. You'd find him somewhere on the spectrum and he's inclined to say what he thinks and directly. I've never pondered that some may define socio-economic status by your choice of jacket but I think it's interesting that he and perhaps others may.

Engineer here. Also probably on the spectrum, to boot.

My opinion is that the kind of engineer to look down on people based on their trade or the clothes they wear makes the rest of us look bad. I had to work very hard to break the blue collar workers' automatic (and justified!) assumption that I was a holier than thou idiot when I hired into my current work position because of people like him.

Pay him no mind regarding his opinions outside of his area of expertise. He's shown his hand, and it's not a winner.

 

[zebedee]

Not only you're in the lower caste by wearing a leather jacket, but you also may get punched in the face at a bar, unprovoked. Lose-lose.

It's just asking for trouble

 

[Monitor]

He was baiting you and while his remark actually had some merit in the past, ones social standing had stopped being mirrored through clothes some century ago.

Truth is, however, that clothes made of leather indeed had only recently became perceived as a luxury (of a sort) but prior to that, fabrics and tailoring, even of the more basic kind, weren't nearly as obtainable as leather & were thus more valuable.

This of course isn't so anymore. . . Well, kind of, as extremely high-end tailoring still requires (much) more work than anything leather but as others have stated, social status norms have so many times been broken and re-invented by both the wealthiest and the most influential people that clothes no longer mean anything at all.

Bottom line is that your associate is very insecure and is holding on to the notion of clothes as ones identity - & for dear life, by the sound of it, if he is willing to publicly share his Youtube crack-pot podcast theories with someone wearing a motorcycle leather jacket.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

65YO Electrical Engineer. You'd find him somewhere on the spectrum and he's inclined to say what he thinks and directly. I've never pondered that some may define socio-economic status by your choice of jacket but I think it's interesting that he and perhaps others may.

Considering you seem to know him in a professional capacity, his remark to you seems to be anything but.

Anyway I don’t think the message is that deep honestly. People tend to make assumptions about someone else’s background, socio-economic standing, education level, etc… just based on their appearance and all kinds of meaningless crap. Not just jackets. Nothing new to me.

They just don’t have to be a dick about it and imply they’re superior because they wear such and such. Especially if you already have some kind of relationship established and he has other indications of your character.

 

[Trouser Bark]

As a point or two of clarification:

- We work in similar capacities.

- He knows I ride a bike but I don't know that he's ever seen me in a leather jacket

- I took no offense... I just thought it was interesting, and

- the remark he made had something to do w/ a blog of some sort that appeals to politically interested readers (or maybe science types). If I understood correctly there were three people that were affiliated w/ the blog(?), two of whom he took for urbane sophisticates and the third was an apparently less refined man as he wore a leather jacket.

Thomas Payne said that anyone unwilling to be offensive could also not be honest. I've never been a delicate man and although that guy can be strikingly offensive he wasn't intending to be at that moment. To me it just seemed an odd remark and an observation I'd have never made. It also was an indication that in his view there must be a higher caste yet that I also don't recognize. Who knows what that group might wear. Something of gold thread, maybe?

If something I like to wear indicates to others that my ancestry might not be long out of the trees I don't mind at all.

 

[bigmanbigtruck]

I think we can simplify this conversation without having to drag in Thomas Payne:

Your associate judges someone's class/social status based on what the individual wears.
You never knew that was a thing. So you want to know if we've ever noticed anything similar?

To answer your question, yes. People pass judgement on even dumber stuff.
I'm just struggling to understand what point you're trying to make.

Kinda reminds me of the thread about whether leather jackets are an invitation for trouble.

 

[Trouser Bark]

I'm just struggling to understand what point you're trying to make.

I wonder... have you noticed anything similar?

End your struggle, brother. Mine is a question and not an attempt to make a point.

 

[zebedee]

Cultural meanings assigned to clothing are interesting. Hoodies were originally 50s dock worker wear and now they're ubiquitous. Somehow, gym wear can be worn outside of gyms and Carhartt has become a high-tiered brand. Leather seems to have gone through minor permutations before its 'Brandoisation' into assumed rebellion/non-conformist wear.

I very much enjoyed the scene in 'Succession' where Greg gets demolished for wearing deck shoes with a suit - what people choose to wear with other things can be a sort of fit 'tell'. Even suits were originally Industrial Revolution workwear (and unisex) intended to disguise the shape of the body. In parts of rural China, a simple suit is common all-day-everyday wear in some poor communities.

 

[Trouser Bark]

Leather seems to have gone through minor permutations before its 'Brandoisation' into assumed rebellion/non-conformist wear.

I think mfg's are largely responsible for any negative perception. I saw a beautiful and heavy leather jacket on the bay last week that I'd love to have but won't buy because it has the name Marauder embossed in the leather right on the front of the jacket. There are several other models of jacket that take names intended to indicate that the wearer at least doesn't feel like a complete knob wearing a jacket labeling him as a dirtbag. Marauder, Vandal, Wildcat, Storm, Mission, Hardcore, Highwayman, Drifter, or a particular fave the ladies' Villainess, etc. Why not a Rapist version or another with Pencil Dick emblazoned across the the sleeve or lapel?

Someone thinks this kind of marketing has merit and thinking out loud, if you have one of these in your closet you're supporting this kind of BS. On some level maybe there's something to the man's comment.

Did I just ruin a jacket for anyone?