Unpopular music opinions

[Harp]

Oh I don't dislike Mozart, quite the contrary, I just prefer Bach.

Of course, Best. Elvis probably preferred Bach.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Never listened Heidt band (time to make a youtube search!), but Sammy Kaye I know. And I agree with you, he had the more tense sweet music I ever listened. Not a pleasure to listen. From what I have here in LPs the only "good" record is "Daddy" - but this could have a better version that I surelly believe exists.

"Tense" is a perfect description of Kaye's sound, actually -- the musicians always played the correct notes, everything was always just-so. And you have the sense that if anyone made an error, the world would come to an end. With the Kyser band, you always had the feeling that if something went wrong, they'd just laugh it off and keep having fun.

Any kind of show band/gimmick band *had to* not take itself too seriously in order to produce good music -- the audience had to have the sense that the band members were actually enjoying themselves. The minute they started taking themselves too seriously, it was all over. That was where Sammy Kaye made his big mistake, and where Kay Kyser never did.

 

[John in Covina]

"With the Kyser band, you always had the feeling that if something went wrong, they'd just laugh it off and keep having fun.

Any kind of show band/gimmick band *had to* not take itself too seriously in order to produce good music -- the audience had to have the sense that the band members were actually enjoying themselves. The minute they started taking themselves too seriously, it was all over. That was where Sammy Kaye made his big mistake, and where Kay Kyser never did.

This describes Max Raabe and Palast Orchester in concert. If you can see it they have a concert DVD that was used by PBS as a funding program. The band plays really well and they are having fun plus their timing for comedy and choreography of where to be at the right time is excellent.

 

[martinsantos]

Maybe because in really good orchestras the musicians have pleasure about playing. I really couldn't see somebody been proud about producing Kaye's music. Note by note, Kaye is correct - but there is no "soul". (remember me an old 78 from Jose Iturbi trying to play boogie-woogie. Just horrible.). But I see (and feel) this in those like Charlie Barnet and Jimmie Lunceford. And Kyser, too!

"Tense" is a perfect description of Kaye's sound, actually -- the musicians always played the correct notes, everything was always just-so. And you have the sense that if anyone made an error, the world would come to an end. With the Kyser band, you always had the feeling that if something went wrong, they'd just laugh it off and keep having fun.

Any kind of show band/gimmick band *had to* not take itself too seriously in order to produce good music -- the audience had to have the sense that the band members were actually enjoying themselves. The minute they started taking themselves too seriously, it was all over. That was where Sammy Kaye made his big mistake, and where Kay Kyser never did.

 

[Harp]

But for my all-time most loathsome, disliked and for all-around tin-foil biting annoyance I would have to go with Sinatra.

Never understood Sinatra's draw....
IMHO Eckstine was by far the top gun of that generation.

 

[Blackjack]

I never thought of Kyser's band as a "gimmick" band as much as just plain corny. Like I said I love his movies, but just listening to his records can be a bit much for me. As far as gimmick bands go you couldn't touch Spike Jones. As far as great boogie woogie players go Freddie Slack is the man for me...

 

[martinsantos]

But hten we would be talking about different kinds of music, Jack.

Kyser is a good sweet orchertra - that used to play bad music, too. At least this is what I think about after listening some records.

Spyke Jones is something completely different! Almost a mistery how they could make something so musical with guns, etc. Looks like they were always loughing of the listener. And it is a very greater orchestra than looks at first sight!

(and like a lot Slack, too! :eusa_clap With Bradley and those records with Ella Mae Morse).

I never thought of Kyser's band as a "gimmick" band as much as just plain corny. Like I said I love his movies, but just listening to his records can be a bit much for me. As far as gimmick bands go you couldn't touch Spike Jones. As far as great boogie woogie players go Freddie Slack is the man for me...

 

[LizzieMaine]

When I say a "gimmick" band, I'm talking about an orchestra that depends on specific sorts of arrangements to give it an instantly-recognizable style -- "gimmick" is not necessarily deprecatory. Kyser had a slew of gimmicks, particularly in the thirties, starting with the "singing song titles," but this stuff was fading in importance by the early forties, and disappeared completely when all his arrangements went up in a bus fire in early 1942. The band still did novelties after this, but their straight arrangements tended to be much more modern-sounding compared to their 1930s stuff.

Other "gimmick bands" by my definition could include such as Hal Kemp -- you heard the trumpet triplets, you instantly knew who you were listening to; Shep Fields and his Rippling Rhythm -- self-explanatory; and even Glenn Miller: if you were tuning around the radio in the night and heard massed clarinets instead of saxes, there was no doubt who you were hearing. Gimmicks were simply a way for bands to stand out on broadcasts.

 

[martinsantos]

Biggest problem with Kyser band is that it is easy listened as a "mickey-mouse band" (corny), depending of the records you're listening.

"Gimmick" is a term almost impossible to translate to me - but got the meaning.

Martin

 

[MissMittens]

I think that people are missing the point on Kyser.......the arrangements that he did required superior musicians in order to accomplish. It really is much harder to play that way, than to be "serious" all the time

 

[Kahuna]

Raymond Scott would be another band leader with a "gimmick" sound - and some very unhappy musicians. I love the music though.

 

[Rundquist]

Kay Kyser! Really?.....

The Fedora Lounge is the wrong place to rip on swing music. It’s counter productive. But since this is a sort of no-holds-barred thread, I’ll let her rip. Golden era swing music in general is lame.

That’s a broad statement; there are many exceptions to this and it’s only my opinion, obviously. But in general, swing is a still-born, neutered music. This is not to say that I don’t appreciate jazz. It’s just that I like jazz that preceded the swing era, and jazz that followed the swing era. Swing for the most part was contrived, corny, and utterly unhip.

The top bands from the day (Miller, Goodman, Dorsey) all produced music that is missing vitality, or juice. Pepper Adams once observed that it’s too bad that Miller couldn’t have lived and his music died.

There was of course some good stuff from the era. But most of the artists that produced decent music during the swing era produced better music later in their careers.

 

[rue]

Yes, Kay Kyser. I'm not a huge fan of Jazz (especially Jazz fusion ), but I like some of it. For me, swing music can be fun, sometimes silly and definitely romantic. Three things that I love

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think juice is in the ears of the beholder, and can easily be removed with a cottony swab. I find most post-swing era jazz to be pretentious "insider" music that obviously isn't intended for working-class white gals from Maine, so I don't bother with it -- but I enjoy pre-war dance music immensely, because I think that it, more than any other performance style, captures the essence of what made Tin Pan Alley songs great. And it's the *songs* that interest me most, not so much how elaborately they can be embroidered.

So yeah, Kay Kyser. And Hal Kemp. And Abe Lyman. And Johnny Green. And Richard Himber. And even George Hall. And most definitely Paul Whiteman.

That may mark me as unhip, but I have no interest in *being* hip. Or even hep.

I do, however love Fats Waller. But then, he was a sellout, right?

 

[rue]

Very well said Lizzie

I think Larry Clinton was excellent too:
[video=youtube;h9-WLXm_faE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9-WLXm_faE[/video]

 

[dhermann1]

Kay Kyser! Really?.....

The Fedora Lounge is the wrong place to rip on swing music. It’s counter productive. But since this is a sort of no-holds-barred thread, I’ll let her rip. Golden era swing music in general is lame.

That’s a broad statement; there are many exceptions to this and it’s only my opinion, obviously. But in general, swing is a still-born, neutered music. This is not to say that I don’t appreciate jazz. It’s just that I like jazz that preceded the swing era, and jazz that followed the swing era. Swing for the most part was contrived, corny, and utterly unhip.

The top bands from the day (Miller, Goodman, Dorsey) all produced music that is missing vitality, or juice. Pepper Adams once observed that it’s too bad that Miller couldn’t have lived and his music died.

There was of course some good stuff from the era. But most of the artists that produced decent music during the swing era produced better music later in their careers.

Oooohhh! Ooooohhh! Anathema! Blasphemy! May lightning strike you!
Meh. I love swing, but you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[martinsantos]

Hum! Of course, is your opinion. But are you sure that aren't you putting to many musicians in the same basket? :eusa_doh:

Duke Ellington is lame? And what Ellington? From Cotton Club or at Newport, in 60s (or 70s)? Or Basie in late 50s don't have vitality?

Maybe Dorsey with "I'm Getting Sentimental Over You" isn't jazz. I only know it's beautiful. But the arrangements by Sy Oliver are, certainly - as all those he made to Jimmie Lunceford!

Do you really think Claude Thornhill Orch "corny"?

Anyway, my "2 cents"!

PS: I like a lot pre-swing music. But after swing is somewhat difficult... Not bebop, usually. Cool jazz is great. Fusion, no way.

Kay Kyser! Really?.....

The Fedora Lounge is the wrong place to rip on swing music. It’s counter productive. But since this is a sort of no-holds-barred thread, I’ll let her rip. Golden era swing music in general is lame.

That’s a broad statement; there are many exceptions to this and it’s only my opinion, obviously. But in general, swing is a still-born, neutered music. This is not to say that I don’t appreciate jazz. It’s just that I like jazz that preceded the swing era, and jazz that followed the swing era. Swing for the most part was contrived, corny, and utterly unhip.

The top bands from the day (Miller, Goodman, Dorsey) all produced music that is missing vitality, or juice. Pepper Adams once observed that it’s too bad that Miller couldn’t have lived and his music died.

There was of course some good stuff from the era. But most of the artists that produced decent music during the swing era produced better music later in their careers.

 

[Rundquist]

Well….I did say that there were obvious exceptions. Ellington, Basie, and others made good music, regardless of the era. Blanket statements are hard to defend.

Anyway, dance music doesn’t have to mean corny. In fact, much of my favorite music could be considered dance music. It should also be pointed out that when I say “hip”, I mean good. There’s only two subdivisions of music, good and bad (as Ellington would say). I don't care what others like, just what I like.

Ellington also said that music was there for the next generation of musicians to use and build upon. While I agree with the popular sentiment of this board that later generations failed (in general) to use the previous generation’s music as building blocks, I disagree with the sentiment that jazz/popular music reached its zenith in the 40’s. However, music in general (across the board) has gone down hill since the 60’s (just my opinion).

 

[Blackjack]

I think that people are missing the point on Kyser.......the arrangements that he did required superior musicians in order to accomplish. It really is much harder to play that way, than to be "serious" all the time

Superior to who? Certainly not Goodman, Shaw, or even most of the top bands.

 

[Blackjack]

Other "gimmick bands" by my definition could include such as Hal Kemp -- you heard the trumpet triplets, you instantly knew who you were listening to; Shep Fields and his Rippling Rhythm -- self-explanatory; and even Glenn Miller: if you were tuning around the radio in the night and heard massed clarinets instead of saxes, there was no doubt who you were hearing. Gimmicks were simply a way for bands to stand out on broadcasts.

Ah... when I hear gimmick I think of a contrived act to cover up a lack of talent. I would use sound or style to describe a bands, well sound or style... Just for info, the Miller sound was a clarinet voice on top with the sax section supporting, no masses of clarinets there...