<<< understanding fit/measurements >>>

[Brandrea33]

Good day all,

I’m hoping to draw on the forum members experience here.

I understand that tag size has little to do with how a jacket will fit (at least I think I’ve got that much right). What I’m not fully understanding is how body measurements in relation to the pattern, affects the fit. Assuming you know what measurements work in one jacket style or pattern, do those same measurements translate across all styles and patterns?

For example: I own a 30’s half belt jacket: 23” P to P and 18.75” shoulders. Do I look for these same measurements if I want an A2 or a Cafe racer?

Thanks in advance for your help

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

Once you get something where you like the fit, that becomes your baseline.

Then you need to adjust for:

Action back, gussets, under arm footballs. You can usually go tighter on ptp and shoulder if your baseline did not have this.

Straight back. You need to go bigger if your baseline had gussets, etc. Opposite of above.

Kind of leather. Cxl, stiff, thicker, etc. Go bigger. Stretchier, lighter, etc. Can go smaller.

Style. Racer go tighter. Etc.

Do you need to layer? Go bigger. Tshirt only go smaller.

For me, I've zeroed in the numbers, but from time to time I'm surprised by a fit by certain manufacturers. I think there's some secret sauce stuff we don't account for (arm hole size, sleeve position, etc)

Generally my ptp range is 22 to 23.5 and my shoulder 17.75 to 19.5. But I need to know the variables. I couldn't do 22ptp, heavy cxl, no gussets. At the same time 23.5 ptp with full action back in soft veg tan leather would be a tent on me.

 

[JMax]

For me, it’s always in the same range but there is some wiggle room depending on certain features of the jacket in question. AB or not? Side laces or not? That sort of thing. There definitely is some trial and error across styles, brands, whether it’s a pure riding jacket, etc. Generally though, the measurements are in the same ballpark. And while I agree that stated size across brands is less important than the measurements, after some trial and error, sizing within a certain brand can become quite helpful. For example, I know a 44 LW will probably fit, so if I see one for sale I am more likely to just hit the bin without asking for measurements.

 

[Brandrea33]

Once you get something where you like the fit, that becomes your baseline.

Then you need to adjust for:

Action back, gussets, under arm footballs. You can usually go tighter on ptp and shoulder if your baseline did not have this.

Straight back. You need to go bigger if your baseline had gussets, etc. Opposite of above.

Kind of leather. Cxl, stiff, thicker, etc. Go bigger. Stretchier, lighter, etc. Can go smaller.

Style. Racer go tighter. Etc.

Do you need to layer? Go bigger. Tshirt only go smaller.

For me, I've zeroed in the numbers, but from time to time I'm surprised by a fit by certain manufacturers. I think there's some secret sauce stuff we don't account for (arm hole size, sleeve position, etc)

Generally my ptp range is 22 to 23.5 and my shoulder 17.75 to 19.5. But I need to know the variables. I couldn't do 22ptp, heavy cxl, no gussets. At the same time 23.5 ptp with full action back in soft veg tan leather would be a tent on me.

Thanks very much for the detailed reply. I’m not going to lie but I was almost afraid that this might be the case. Seems there is a fair amount of trial and error required then.

This makes sense, however it gets difficult if you are ordering on line without being able to physically try the jackets on.

 

[Brandrea33]

For me, it’s always in the same range but there is some wiggle room depending on certain features of the jacket in question. AB or not? Side laces or not? That sort of thing. There definitely is some trial and error across styles, brands, whether it’s a pure riding jacket, etc. Generally though, the measurements are in the same ballpark. And while I agree that stated size across brands is less important than the measurements, after some trial and error, sizing within a certain brand can become quite helpful. For example, I know a 44 LW will probably fit, so if I see one for sale I am more likely to just hit the bin without asking for measurements.

Thank you, and very helpful information, much appreciated. Sizing within the same brand makes some sense to me.

 

[JMax]

Thank you, and very helpful information, much appreciated. Sizing within the same brand makes some sense to me.

NP. I’m into vintage jackets. After owning a few I’ve found the sizing sweet spot for certain makers. I’m a 42 in most Sears, be it Herc or Oakbrook. With a bit of room sometimes. Which is odd since in most vintage I am around a 44/46, or more. It helps knowing that since many sellers don’t measure jackets or measure them differently than I would. In these cases the stated size helps, once you’ve handled a few. Now with something like a Cal, I always ask for measurements— too many made to measure police jackets out there. One never really knows.

Good topic. One I could have used early on. I would also track sizing across makers and sort of build that institutional knowledge. That way you can go after a special jacket not really knowing the precise measurements. Guys like monitor, ton, TM, mysteryo, etc., can probably just look at a picture and have a good idea as to fit. But those jacket blue-hairs have been at it for a long time.

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

Thanks very much for the detailed reply. I’m not going to lie but I was almost afraid that this might be the case. Seems there is a fair amount of trial and error required then.

This makes sense, however it gets difficult if you are ordering on line without being able to physically try the jackets on.

those websites that give info about the model wearing the jacket, i.e. height/weight, are gold. I usually adjust 5lbs for each inch. So, if model is 6'0 180, if I were 5'10, equivalent would be 170 lbs, etc. And then I gauge how it fits. There's sites like Schott, where most jackets are oversized at least by 1. So I try to figure out how close I am to the model, and then start doing some math. Worst case, I search here for fit pics posted by TFLers and again try and do the math.

Then I use the rules of thumb I listed for red flags. I stopped buying action back jackets because those were the hardest to figure out. They have to be tight enough to keep the elastic taut, but not too tight or not too loose. Otherwise you get the bat wings. But a basic single yoke jacket, I know I'm 18.5-19 shoulder and 22.5 to 23 ptp. Gussets I know I can push to 18 shoulder and 22 ptp.

But I hear you. Buying online is a leap of faith. I think that's main reason I've been gun shy on some of the Japanese repro stuff. For that kind of money, it's a roll of the dice. I've seen too many people on here taking an $800 hit just because they misjudged by a size. I'm not too far from Vegas if I want to do that kind of gambling.

 

[MrProper]

I always use the same measurements as a base, but change them if the material is thicker.
A jacket with thick lining or a shearling has slightly larger measurements than a jacket with cotton drill. Thick stiff leather will also be slightly larger rather than smaller.

 

[Brandrea33]

I always use the same measurements as a base, but change them if the material is thicker.
A jacket with thick lining or a shearling has slightly larger measurements than a jacket with cotton drill. Thick stiff leather will also be slightly larger rather than smaller.

Thanks for the reminder about lining thicknesses, I didn’t even consider that.

 

[Carlos840]

Good day all,

I’m hoping to draw on the forum members experience here.

I understand that tag size has little to do with how a jacket will fit (at least I think I’ve got that much right). What I’m not fully understanding is how body measurements in relation to the pattern, affects the fit. Assuming you know what measurements work in one jacket style or pattern, do those same measurements translate across all styles and patterns?

For example: I own a 30’s half belt jacket: 23” P to P and 18.75” shoulders. Do I look for these same measurements if I want an A2 or a Cafe racer?

Thanks in advance for your help

Short answer is no.
Measurements that work in one style might not work in another style.
To make things worst, two jackets can have the same style and the same measurements and fit differently depending on how the pattern is cut.

Measurements should give you a pretty decent idea, they will tell you if you'll be able to put that jacket on and close it, but hey won't tell you how a jacket feels or fits.

For example when i bought my FW San Mateo all measurements pointed to a jacket that should have worked great on me, they where almost identical to my FW LaBrea which fit great, i was convinced it was going to work out.
The SanMateo was a complete failure, it didn't fit, i couldn't comfortably wear it, i sold it on.

 

[Brandrea33]

Short answer is no.
Measurements that work in one style might not work in another style.
To make things worst, two jackets can have the same style and the same measurements and fit differently depending on how the pattern is cut.

Measurements should give you a pretty decent idea, they will tell you if you'll be able to put that jacket on and close it, but hey won't tell you how a jacket feels or fits.

For example when i bought my FW San Mateo all measurements pointed to a jacket that should have worked great on me, they where almost identical to my FW LaBrea which fit great, i was convinced it was going to work out.
The SanMateo was a complete failure, it didn't fit, i couldn't comfortably wear it, i sold it on.

Thanks Carlos. This definitely confirms my worst fear lol.

In my mind I had decided not to order another jacket that I didn’t have the opportunity to physically try on, and yet, last week I did it again and ordered another one.

I kind of figured that what you say might be the case, but being new to this I guess my optimism got the better of me. I hope the new jacket fits. We shall see.

 

[Brandrea33]

And ….. another one bites the dust

Received this Nelson Real McCoy's yesterday and it’s on its way back. No fit pics, but needless to say it didn’t work out.

The by all accounts the measurements should have worked as compared to my only other jacket … but the fit was WAY off.

Back to the drawing board.

 

[Marc mndt]

The by all accounts the measurements should have worked as compared to my only other jacket … but the fit was WAY off.

Could you elaborate? What were your expectations and why were they not met? Were the actual measurements off, or were they spot on but the pattern didn't work for you?

Beautiful jacket btw

 

[Brandrea33]

Could you elaborate? What were your expectations and why were they not met? Were the actual measurements off, or were they spot on but the pattern didn't work for you?

Beautiful jacket btw

Well Marc, I wish I knew … I guess it must be the way the pattern was cut? Here is what I based my decision on:

I own a HB Imperial sized as follows: 23” P to P, 18.75” shoulders, 25” long, 26.25” sleeves. It fits really well by most counts, but is a bit tight in the chest and shoulders when I try to wear a light to mid weight sweater or jumper.

My goal is to find another similar style that I can layer with so when stumbled on the Real McCoys Nelson thread here, I decided to give one a go based on the measurements I saw on their website.

The jacket received is beautiful, well made and true to size: 23.4” PtoP, 20” shoulders 25” long, 26” sleeves is what I measured. These are almost identical to what is published on their site.

Unfortunately for whatever reason, the jacket was too large, especially in the back where there was excess material in the shoulder blades (if that makes senses). The width of the shoulders themselves wasn’t all that bad IMO and the chest felt and looked good. The sleeves were also very tubular in shape, so my skinny arms didn’t look all the good.

So in a nut shell, it just didn’t work for me.

The vendor is great to work with and I have to say that the jacket was beautiful! Packaged impeccably too. I hope it finds a good home.

 

[Marc mndt]

Well Marc, I wish I knew … I guess it must be the way the pattern was cut? Here is what I based my decision on:

I own a HB Imperial sized as follows: 23” P to P, 18.75” shoulders, 25” long, 26.25” sleeves. It fits really well by most counts, but is a bit tight in the chest and shoulders when I try to wear a light to mid weight sweater or jumper.

My goal is to find another similar style that I can layer with so when stumbled on the Real McCoys Nelson thread here, I decided to give one a go based on the measurements I saw on their website.

The jacket received is beautiful, well made and true to size: 23.4” PtoP, 20” shoulders 25” long, 26” sleeves is what I measured. These are almost identical to what is published on their site.

Unfortunately for whatever reason, the jacket was too large, especially in the back where there was excess material in the shoulder blades (if that makes senses). The width of the shoulders themselves wasn’t all that bad IMO and the chest felt and looked good. The sleeves were also very tubular in shape, so my skinny arms didn’t look all the good.

So in a nut shell, it just didn’t work for me.

The vendor is great to work with and I have to say that the jacket was beautiful! Packaged impeccably too. I hope it finds a good home.

I see. Sounds like a pattern thing. Like @Carlos840 mentioned, two jackets can have the same measurements yet fit totally differently.

Take these two halfbelts for example, both have a ptp of 22.5. Yet there's a difference in chest width (between the arm holes) of two inch. The difference is partially offset by a wider upper sleeve. So added up the measurements might be in the same ballpark, but the fit/feel can be totally different due to the way the individual parts are cut.

There's no way of knowing without trying. Before I ordered my first custom jacket, I visited a couple of stockist to try Aero, Schott and Thedi jackets.

For me the Aeros were terrible, very restrictive and uncomfortable. I was told that was due to the CXL being stiff right out of the box. The Schotts felt ok but too much room in the belly. The Thedis fit like a glove (even though they were the tightest in terms of measurement).

 

[Canuck Panda]

Well Marc, I wish I knew … I guess it must be the way the pattern was cut? Here is what I based my decision on:

I own a HB Imperial sized as follows: 23” P to P, 18.75” shoulders, 25” long, 26.25” sleeves. It fits really well by most counts, but is a bit tight in the chest and shoulders when I try to wear a light to mid weight sweater or jumper.

My goal is to find another similar style that I can layer with so when stumbled on the Real McCoys Nelson thread here, I decided to give one a go based on the measurements I saw on their website.

The jacket received is beautiful, well made and true to size: 23.4” PtoP, 20” shoulders 25” long, 26” sleeves is what I measured. These are almost identical to what is published on their site.

Unfortunately for whatever reason, the jacket was too large, especially in the back where there was excess material in the shoulder blades (if that makes senses). The width of the shoulders themselves wasn’t all that bad IMO and the chest felt and looked good. The sleeves were also very tubular in shape, so my skinny arms didn’t look all the good.

So in a nut shell, it just didn’t work for me.

The vendor is great to work with and I have to say that the jacket was beautiful! Packaged impeccably too. I hope it finds a good home.

Beautiful jacket, but I think that's Asian sizing my friend. The torso is ")(" shaped, instead of "\ /" shaped. So the P2P numbers isn't the most important but the Hem and Waist measurements.

I have the Goodwear version of your Himel Imperial in the same size. It's got 19" Shoulder, 23.5" P2P, AND 21" HEM. The typical "drop 5" taper in the torso.

Your Real McCoys Nelson probably has 23" hem measurement right? Please check and let us know. That's my guess at why it feels boxy or oversized to you, even when the shoulder/P2P are correct.

 

[Brandrea33]

I see. Sounds like a pattern thing. Like @Carlos840 mentioned, two jackets can have the same measurements yet fit totally differently.

Take these two halfbelts for example, both have a ptp of 22.5. Yet there's a difference in chest width (between the arm holes) of two inch. The difference is partially offset by a wider upper sleeve. So added up the measurements might be in the same ballpark, but the fit/feel can be totally different due to the way the individual parts are cut.

View attachment 363090 View attachment 363091 View attachment 363092

There's no way of knowing without trying. Before I ordered my first custom jacket, I visited a couple of stockist to try Aero, Schott and Thedi jackets.

For me the Aeros were terrible, very restrictive and uncomfortable. I was told that was due to the CXL being stiff right out of the box. The Schotts felt ok but too much room in the belly. The Thedis fit like a glove (even though they were the tightest in terms of measurement).

Thanks Marc, I really appreciate this detail. I had know idea that chest armholes could play into the fit in this way and your pictures are worth a thousand words.

Now I’ve got another set of measurements to fret about

 

[Brandrea33]

Beautiful jacket, but I think that's Asian sizing my friend. The torso is ")(" shaped, instead of "\ /" shaped. So the P2P numbers isn't the most important but the Hem and Waist measurements.

I have the Goodwear version of your Himel Imperial in the same size. It's got 19" Shoulder, 23.5" P2P, AND 21" HEM. The typical "drop 5" taper in the torso.

Your Real McCoys Nelson probably has 23" hem measurement right? Please check and let us know. That's my guess at why it feels boxy or oversized to you, even when the shoulder/P2P are correct.

I’ve got the jacket packed up and waiting for shipment back to the vendor so it’s not really easy to get that for you unfortunately.

I will say, my HB measures 20” at the hem, and I’m certain this one was at least a couple inches larger.