Underage drinking

[Big Bertie]

That's a very good point -- the romanticisation of addiction in popular culture is not at all constructive. When we talk about great artists, great writers, great entertainers, great stars whose lives ended up in the bottle, we shouldn't be thinking "that's what made them great." Instead we should be wondering how much greater they could have been if they'd thrown the damn bottle away.

Many great artists, writers, musicians, thinkers etc have had what some might term a 'drink problem' (or a habit involving some other substance - opium, LSD etc), and their lives were afflicted by turmoil - Coleridge, Waugh, Hemingway, the Beatles etc etc. Even Churchill had his daily bottle of brandy. But would abstinence have made them better artists etc?

 

[Mojito]

I was introduced to alcohol at family gatherings in my mid-late teens - good wine, and I was taught to appreciate it. My parents also had a rule: if any of us found ourselves in trouble, or stranded, or intoxicated, we were to contact them immediately and tell them what the situation was. I never had to avail myself of that, but my younger brother did. My mother is an RN and was very clear on the problems of excess alcohol. Unfortunately, there is a family history of addiction - my Scots great-grandmother, on the surface a highly respectable lady married to a wealthy pillar of the community who stood high up in the Masons, was a closeted alcholic who drank in secret. My paternal grandfather came back the trenches of WWI with a heavy addiction to drinking and tobacco - he battled both and would become so disgusted with himself he'd go abruptly sober for months at a time (which apparently did nothing for his good temper). Sadly, he died comparatively young of lung cancer. My paternal grandmother's brother - by all accounts a very, very lovely individual who was adored by his family (and someone I wish I'd met as he once won a Charleston competition in the 1920s) - died a hopeless alcoholic, sitting under a tree in a public park. So we do try to be open and honest about alcohol in our family, and I was raised to be familiar with it and its effects.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Many great artists, writers, musicians, thinkers etc have had what some might term a 'drink problem' (or a habit involving some other substance - opium, LSD etc), and their lives were afflicted by turmoil - Coleridge, Waugh, Hemingway, the Beatles etc etc. Even Churchill had his daily bottle of brandy. But would abstinence have made them better artists etc?

It wouldn't have made them *worse.* The whole idea that you can only be a great artist if you drink/drug yourself into an early grave is exactly the romanticisation that I reject. There have been plenty of great artists, great writers, great thinkers who spent their lives stone cold sober, and plenty who drank moderately, but they don't get surrounded by ridiculous death cults.

 

[Big Bertie]

But how can you tell? My point is that great writers, artists, thinkers etc are frequently extreme characters - think of Van Gogh, for example, and many actors and musicians come to mind. Often their personalities would seem to have been such that they were unable to function creatively at such a level without some stimulant or other. Not necessarily good role models for the young, I would agree, and attributing their genius to a liking for the sauce or whatever may be confusing cause and effect. Personally I find moderate consumption of wine greatly improves my quality of life and makes me a better person, able to accommodate the vicissitudes of life. A few years ago I had an attack of gout, and at first my physician advised me to abstain from all wines and spirits, which I did. After a week or so, my wife told me it had made me dull, and she was right. The physician later amended his prognosis, fortunately.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I live in Wisconsin, and drinking is our number one pastime here. I never tried to sneak into the bar, though. In Wisconsin, you can legally drink in the bar, under the age of 21, if accompanied by a parent or guardian.

 

[Undertow]

It wouldn't have made them *worse.* The whole idea that you can only be a great artist if you drink/drug yourself into an early grave is exactly the romanticisation that I reject. There have been plenty of great artists, great writers, great thinkers who spent their lives stone cold sober, and plenty who drank moderately, but they don't get surrounded by ridiculous death cults.

Precisely. Take Hunter Thompson: the man was a great writer and he knew how to cover the counter-culture and the drugs of counter-culture. In fact, he has wonderfully lucid moments in Fear and Loathing In Las Vegas where he describes the very effects of drug use and its way of destroying the counter-culture*. Yet, once Thompson started dipping into the proverbial stash a little too much, his writing suffered considerably until he'd become a caricature of himself, as if written according to his own "gonzo" standards. His writing devolved into incoherent ranting centered on nothing but drugs and crime. Although he retained that "gonzo" spark, and an eye for objective analysis, his work was just shamefully sad.

*It's his bit about Timothy Leary creating cripples, the watermark of the tide in San Francisco, etc,.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I know what y'all are saying about drugs and artists...and you're probably right...but I just can't imagine artists like Jimi without the smack, or Papa without the rum, or Uncle Duke without the acid.

They just wouldn't be the same tragic heroes without their fatal flaws...

AF

 

[W-D Forties]

My point really, is that I 'learned' to drink in an adult environment where messing around was not tolerated. That's not to say I was totally responsible, certainly when I got older I would often drink far too much, but it made me aware that it was an adult thing to do.

We have a massive problem with drinking in the UK and a lot of it is due to very cheap, very strong booze sold in supermarkets. People drink at home, in parks, wherever, and drink far too much. It's cheap and available. When I was a teenager, like twotypes, I drank lager mostly, and I drank in pubs where a) it was more expensive = I drank less, and b) it was about being sociable, not getting legless.

Now traditional pubs are closing and we are left with open all night 'all you can drink' bars where you can drink yourself to death for a tenner.
If I thought it would do any good I'd advocate 21 as the minimum drinking limit here. Unfortunately 21 year old here as just as bloody immature as 14 year olds.

I guess I'm just nostalgic for a (slightly) more innocent time when it was about the dressing up and socialising and not all about drinking something more akin to meths with a gang of scruffy spotty oiks in the park.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Another example of how a means to an end has become an end in of itself.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Precisely. Take Hunter Thompson: the man was a great writer and he knew how to cover the counter-culture and the drugs of counter-culture. In fact, he has wonderfully lucid moments in Fear and Loathing In Las Vegas where he describes the very effects of drug use and its way of destroying the counter-culture*. Yet, once Thompson started dipping into the proverbial stash a little too much, his writing suffered considerably until he'd become a caricature of himself, as if written according to his own "gonzo" standards. His writing devolved into incoherent ranting centered on nothing but drugs and crime. Although he retained that "gonzo" spark, and an eye for objective analysis, his work was just shamefully sad.

*It's his bit about Timothy Leary creating cripples, the watermark of the tide in San Francisco, etc,.

Indeed. When you listen to the records Billie Holliday made in the mid-to-late thirties, you hear genius. When you listen to her just before the drugs and booze killed her, you hear the gutted ruins of genius.

To me the question isn't "could these few great artists have been brilliant without the booze and drugs?" It's "how many of these thousands of stumbling drunken bums out there could have been brilliant?"

 

[hatophile]

I know what y'all are saying about drugs and artists...and you're probably right...but I just can't imagine artists like Jimi without the smack, or Papa without the rum, or Uncle Duke without the acid.

They just wouldn't be the same tragic heroes without their fatal flaws...

AF

I think if you look deeply into the lives of many of these tragic artists, there are some underlying mental or emotional issues which led to "self-medication", and then to self destruction from addiction.
While many of us are able to have our youthful indiscretions and grow out of them, I think some end up with addictions not only because of the substance, but for treating or masking some deep trauma or depression. Of course the more addictive the drug itself, the less likely the person is to escape the spiral downward and the original mental condition becomes buried by the addiction itself, or worsened.

 

[Canadian]

Over a year ago, I made the decision not to drink. I simply had my share and it wasn't reasonable to carry on. I'm 28, and to me, drinking is something which causes me to behave irrationally. The strongest thing I drink now is sparkling apple juice at family functions, or Coca Cola.

I remember going to political conferences where there are hospitality suites. Last time, all I had was a grape soda, but because I was good at handling booze, I ended up bartending. I actually got to meet the Premier, and I was sober enough to remember it.

 

[Flicka]

I know what y'all are saying about drugs and artists...and you're probably right...but I just can't imagine artists like Jimi without the smack, or Papa without the rum, or Uncle Duke without the acid.

They just wouldn't be the same tragic heroes without their fatal flaws...

AF

Well, they wouldn't be tragic heroes without a tragic end. But there are plenty of heroes that aren't tragic.

After a week or so, my wife told me it had made me dull, and she was right.

Well, living with a drinker may not be dull but it sure ain't no party.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Well, they wouldn't be tragic heroes without a tragic end. But there are plenty of heroes that aren't tragic.

Exactly. But it is their fatal flaw, combined with their larger than life talent, that makes them so appealing…and so firmly chisels their place in history. That and the fact that they often die at, or very close to, their creative peaks. I'm no artist...but I've been told...if you are an artist who lives completely for the art, that second thing is sometimes not really so tragic.

AF

 

[Undertow]

...To me the question isn't "could these few great artists have been brilliant without the booze and drugs?" It's "how many of these thousands of stumbling drunken bums out there could have been brilliant?"

Right, look at the internet phenom Ted Williams; the homeless man behind the golden voice. (Although the whole thing stinks of the same reality-show-sweetness that sells primetime television spots...) He's done well for himself and apparently cleaned up his act. In gigantic cities like New York, Las Vegas and Chicago, how many soused layabouts or junkies could have reached greatness had they been clean?

While I suppose there may be an exception to the rule where one or two artists, or groups, may have used drugs/booze to inspire their art, I would argue that it's far more likely, for more often, that drugs and booze have done very little to forward their cause. Certainly, some drugs provide alternative perspectives, which can be invaluable to an artist - but that same artists ALREADY had the talent; the drugs were only a single key to a single door.

Look what happens to those same "tortured artists" who fall down the hole of "one more hit"...

 

[Big Bertie]

Well, living with a drinker may not be dull but it sure ain't no party.

Hmmm, I don't think I said I was a 'drinker', Flicka - in fact I very specifically said I like to drink moderately. It is mischievous of you to try to twist my words in that way.

 

[Flicka]

Hmmm, I don't think I said I was a 'drinker', Flicka - in fact I very specifically said I like to drink moderately. It is mischievous of you to try to twist my words in that way.

I wasn't talking about your drinking habits. I meant that too much spoils things a lot worse than too little.

 

[Big Bertie]

I wasn't talking about your drinking habits.

Well it certainly sounded as if you were, and I don't think an apology would be entirely out of order

 

[Flicka]

Well it certainly sounded as if you were, and I don't think an apology would be entirely out of order

I had no intention of commenting on your drinking habits and I am sorry if you interpreted it that way. Had I been able to imagine that such an interpretation was possible, I would have phrased it differently. I might add that I could have added "Speaking as someone who knows" because you weren't on my mind at all when I made the comment. I don't know you, I know nothing about you and I have no comment or opinion whatsoever on your habits, your person or your character.

 

[angeljenny]

My parents used to let me drink a little bit at home or, when I was 15 /16, at the pub with a meal when out with the family.

I didn't get served a drink at a bar until I was 18. I didn't like it! I have all sorts of funny ideas about going to the bar and pint glasses.....

Even my friends who are my age still go out most weekends with the aim of getting drunk. They know it is dangerous (they have been in some tricky situations) and yet they still go out to get drunk.