UK Law and Replica Guns

[Edward]

A question here for folks who know of such things - I should imagine that there are a few among the reenactor community out there...

I'm actually working on ideas for a steampunk costume at present. I have a costume-type duelling rapier (no use as a real sword, purely decorative) that will do nicely, but I wanted the character also to have a pistol of some sort. My first choice was a replica 'broomhandle' Mauser, but it appears that as - though 'in character' - I am not part of a re-enactment or theatrical or film project, I would be breaking the law by having one of those on me. I have managed to ascertain that this law applies specifically to replicas of weapons current after about 1870, so I think I'm right in saying that my second choice, the 1861 Le Mat 'Grapeshot' revolver, would be acceptable. Is this correct? I'd really rather be sure before I dress up to head off to an event and get lifted for it!

Please note I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion (though it is somewhat ironic that I might in some cases be easier getting a licence for the real thing than what is, ultimately, a big boy's toy), just wanting to make sure I stay on the right side of the law. Much as I adore putting together a great costume, I'm not willing to end up with a criminal record for it!! lol

 

[Creeping Past]

Home Office site on commencement of relevant Act in 2007 said:

"23. Section 38 defines a 'realistic imitation firearm' as an imitation firearm which has an appearance that is so realistic as to make it indistinguishable, for all practical purposes, from a real firearm. 'Imitation firearm' is defined in section 57(4) of the Firearms 1968 as 'any thing which has the appearance of being a firearm...whether or not it is capable of discharging any shot, bullet or other missile'.

The term 'real firearm' is defined in section 38(7) as either a firearm of an actual make or model of a modern firearm, or a generic modern firearm. The term 'modern firearm' is defined in subsection 8 as a firearm other than one whose appearance would tend to identify it as having a design and mechanism of a sort first dating before 1870.

The effect of this definition is that realistic imitations of pre-1870 firearms are not caught by the new offence. Deactivated firearms and antique imitations (such as old dummy rifles used for drill practice) are expressly excluded from the definition of realistic imitation firearm and are therefore not affected by the new offence either."

(Don't) fire away!

 

[Mike K.]

Might be a good idea to print out a copy of those laws and carry them with you, just in case anyone questions the legality while you are in costume.

 

[DBLIII]

Agreed with Mike times a couple hundred. We move a lot of firearms and carry copies of permits and legal statutes with us all the time. Not that we would ever even presume that some law enforcement officer wouldn't know the relevant statutes regarding transporting firearms, of course, but it just might be handy to have a source of official, legal reference if someone happened to be temporarily confused, momentarily addled, confounded, etc.

 

[Creeping Past]

I think it may take more than a print-out off a website to change the mind of any wrong-headed individual, whether or not they happen to be in uniform. Don't let that stop you, though. But remember not to wave the piece of paper proving you're right too briskly...

 

[Story]

Edward,
Since these folks are peddling a faux Lemat (for 103 Pounds!), you might get them to forward you a copy of the applicable laws.
http://www.sutlers.co.uk/acatalog/REPguns.html

And then go buy this one, used, for 25 Pounds.
http://www.gundeals-forum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=44478

NEVER PAY RETAIL!

 

[Opas Coat]

Why don't you call the local authority's and ask them? they are the ones you will be dealing with if things go south.

Have them print you a copy of the laws and stamp it. Anyone can use Microsoft and make an authentic looking documents.

 

[BellyTank]

I bought a de-activated, Portuguese FBP m/948 sub-machine gun from Greenwich market, London, in 1998, it was very cheap, so I had to rescue it.
It came complete, with the de-ac certificate, from the B'ham Proof House.
Quite a nice sub-machine gun- MP-40 size, telescoping stock, kind of a cross between an MP-40 and a grease-gun.
I used this sub-machinegun at a fancy dress party combined with a very
"Cuban/Macgyver/A-Team Central American Dictatorship Army" fatigue type uniform, cap and cigar. I stood by the door for long periods of time. People were a little scared but then, they really should have been.

"Deactivation work carried out in the UK since 1st July 1989 will generally have been endorsed by one of the Proof Houses, the weapon proof-marked and a certificate of deactivation issued. To these ends, any weapon, even a prohibited weapon such as a machine gun, can be deactivated. The outcome is that the weapon is no longer a firearm within the meaning of the Firearms Acts, and consequently may be possessed without a firearm or shotgun certificate and may be displayed in the owner's home, rather than be locked in a gun cabinet."

So, are de-acs allowed, under the law? At fancy dress parties..?


B
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[metropd]

The Met Police I've dealt with were polite and relaxed Police Constables. I am sure if you let them know before hand they would be fine with it.

 

[Edward]

Why don't you call the local authority's and ask them? they are the ones you will be dealing with if things go south.

Have them print you a copy of the laws and stamp it. Anyone can use Microsoft and make an authentic looking documents.

Good idea, I might try and organise that. Just a matter of the approach as I would be wary of them either thinking I was taking the mickey, or winding up with someone who said 'no' because they wrren't sure, rather than knowing the answer, if you follow me.

So, are de-acs allowed, under the law? At fancy dress parties..?


B
T

Based on the above and everything I have managed to find out, de-acs and accurate replicas are now forbidden under the law. Pre-1870 designs are exempt, which allows the LeMat, but not, alas, the Mauser. If you want to have an accurate replica of a post 1870 firearm, you mave to be either a re-enactor or buying it for theatrical / film use, and afaik sellers are supposed to acquire proof of such before they sell to you. I should expect that the official reaction to a fancy dress part is "just buy a toy gun" - no matter how poor a substitute that might be.

At least if nothing else it's confirmed that I'll be able to buy that Winchester replica I want on my wall when I redecorate the flat!

 

[Edward]

The Met Police I've dealt with were polite and relaxed Police Constables. I am sure if you let them know before hand they would be fine with it.

Much of the Met I've dealt with are fine, but there's a lot of them I wouldn't go near, especially not with my accent.

 

[DutchIndo]

I thought California was bad but it's still not over .....

 

[Cobden]

Just some clarifications; under British law, Realistic Imitation Firearms are illegal to buy and sell (though not own - if you have one already, you're not breaking the law) except in certain circumstances, re-enactment and film theatre being the basic ones (the home office has guidelines as to what counts as these too - basically boiling down to the requirement for PLI for re-enactors). A realistic imitation firearm is basically any model gun that isn't a stupid colour (yellow, blue, pink, etc.) - though replicas of firearms manufactured before 1870 - such as a replica of the the 1861 Le Mat 'Grapeshot' revolver you mentioned - are legal to buy and sell to anyone.

Deacts are perfectly legal, and anyone can buy them. Make sure it has proof house stamps! (A deact cert is very much advised too).

The other important thing to bear in mind is don't wear it out and about unless you wish to spend some time in Wormwood Scrubs. The same goes for the sabre. If you need to travel with them on public transport or on foot, you'll need a case for both that disguises the nature of the contents - a hard suitcase or some such, as opposed to a soft gun shaped bag or holster.

It's rather daft (a plastic potato gun painted black is illegal to sell, but a replica lee enfield painted blue and pink is legal), and of course one has to bear in mind that in the end it comes down to a judge to decide exactly what counts as a re-enactor etc.

 

[Viola]

Potato guns count as replicas? Of what?

 

[dr greg]

sillier still

I might have said this before, but in this country, to get an armourer to provide weapons for a film shoot, it's cheaper to use real guns than replicas due to the fact that more permits and licenses are needed for the fakes.......and if you can figure out the reasoning behind that you're smarter than me.....

 

[BellyTank]

Nice to see you back, Cobden!

OK- now suddenly everything has changed...

http://www.wolfarmouries.co.uk/airsoft/bb/product.asp?page=product&id=KAAG17

This IS an extreme case of an "Airsoft weapon" because it is an all-metal replica
but now I can see.... "...50% must be painted a bright colour..."

It does seem a bit hard, for those(me included)harmless types, who enjoy guns, functional, or replica- but I guess there is some sense in it. It isn't really any great loss of freedom, as far as I can see, to have a toy gun look like a toy gun.

So now I can't take my full-auto all-metal replica sub-machine gun on the plane to London- terrible news.



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[Cigarband]

I am a Citizen. I have a concealed carry permit and have my tool (Smith&Wesson .38) with me always. I'll never understand how so many have let so few turn them from Citizens into Subjects.:eusa_doh:

 

[Cobden]

Technically speaking, Britain's changed from subjects to citizens in the 1950's, though I know that's not what you meant

You have to bear in mind, we have no second ammendment, and no handgun culture.

Doesn't stop some of the provision in the VCR act from being daft, mind

 

[BellyTank]

That's right- many other countries of the World do not and never have had a gun culture, so you cannot take it away.


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[carebear]

Hey, no politics. Yes, I know who started it.

The laws are what they are and if people in a country don't like them they can go about changing them.

Edward,

I think the LeMat will look sweet. Do you think the law might let you add maybe a brass tube as a scope or some other brass doohickeys, steampunk it up a bit more?

If you're going to be asking questions about the subject anyway.

Oh, did your reference of accent imply the Met officers might find it disconcerting for a man of your heritage to be inquiring about gun-related stuff in London?