Tying neckties

[BlueTrain]

This isn't about four-in-hand versus Windsor or half-Windsor. It's about tying a necktie so that's it's short. I don't know why I thought of it but maybe because of something I noticed in an old movie.

Once upon a time, provably sixty years ago, my father mentioned to me that, before WWII, some men would put the necktie around the neck twice and so produce a result that had the ends of the tie come to about the middle of the chest. One does sometimes see it in old movies and photographs but not that often. I've never attempted it myself but it is a curious practice.

Anyone else ever hear of doing something like that?

 

[viclip]

This isn't about four-in-hand versus Windsor or half-Windsor. It's about tying a necktie so that's it's short. I don't know why I thought of it but maybe because of something I noticed in an old movie.

Once upon a time, provably sixty years ago, my father mentioned to me that, before WWII, some men would put the necktie around the neck twice and so produce a result that had the ends of the tie come to about the middle of the chest. One does sometimes see it in old movies and photographs but not that often. I've never attempted it myself but it is a curious practice.

Anyone else ever hear of doing something like that?

I think that neckties were tailored shorter for &/or tied shorter by men who wore vests. Vests were much more popular prior to WW2. Summer temps allowing, I will wear a vest in order to accommodate one or two pocket watches. I must be careful to tie my necktie short or else make a point of using one of my shorter specimens so that the end won't ever show from below the bottom of the vest. And bear in mind that the "proper" way to sport a vest is to leave the bottom button unbuttoned, which emphasizes the need to keep the end of the necktie from poking out.

 

[BlueTrain]

Well, I thought the best way to do that was to tuck the end of the tine inside your trousers.

 

[drcube01]

I think that neckties were tailored shorter for &/or tied shorter by men who wore vests. Vests were much more popular prior to WW2. Summer temps allowing, I will wear a vest in order to accommodate one or two pocket watches. I must be careful to tie my necktie short or else make a point of using one of my shorter specimens so that the end won't ever show from below the bottom of the vest. And bear in mind that the "proper" way to sport a vest is to leave the bottom button unbuttoned, which emphasizes the need to keep the end of the necktie from poking out.

Not only vests, but people wore their pants much higher back in the day. They still wore ties at belt length, but the belt was up on their belly button, so the tie was much shorter.

 

[Willybob]

 

[emigran]

yep ties of the GE were shorter as mentioned and today it does seem that everyone except Trump wears a tie to the belt line.. He drives me nuts with his down his low abdomen and his suit jacket always open...

 

[BlueTrain]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necktie#/media/File:1953_wide_tie.jpg

That is one example of a short necktie but it is even longer than what I had in mind, by a couple of inches. I couldn't begin to explain why that was done no more than I could explain why men wear neckties in the first place.

Older neckties usually, but not always, had a thinner lining which allowed for a smaller knot than most ties today.

 

[BlueTrain]

yep ties of the GE were shorter as mentioned and today it does seem that everyone except Trump wears a tie to the belt line.. He drives me nuts with his down his low abdomen and his suit jacket always open...

It seems to be more difficult to buy a suit or sports jacket that will button without the lapels flaring out. Either I'm bigger than I think I am or I'm not buying expensive clothing. At any rate, I wear a necktie most days but rarely a suit anymore.

 

[Tiki Tom]

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I was taught that the end of your tie should reach the bottom edge of your belt; no lower, no higher. Almost every day I am visually assaulted by guys whose ties only reach to the middle of their abdomen or those that reach all the way to their crotch. Is it that hard? Or do people simply not look in the mirror? Or perhaps my persnickety judgements are just a sign of a snooty and out-dated personality.

 

[viclip]

Let's not forget that neckties essentially evolved from scarves that Croatian troops were observed wearing several centuries ago. And that for centuries thereafter neckwear was short by today's standards. Necktie length gradually increased to what it is today, I believe largely following the Second World War for whatever reason (including a better look with the demise of waistcoats/vests). We laughingly tease fellows wearing uncovered short neckties that they look like a bus driver nowadays but back in the 1950s Jackie Gleason's portrayal of Ralph Cramden in "The Honeymooners" was true to life ~ stylish men wore their neckties short, bowties were popular. The Croatian soldiers who started the neckwear craze would probably think it strange that we wear these long necktie things.

 

[BlueTrain]

French soldiers in the 40s and 50s and sometimes on into the 1960s wore a kind of scarf that was looped around their neck in a certain way. It was long enough for the loose ends to be tucked under their waist belt (their equipment belt or Sam Browne). I believe it was called a "chèche," either khaki or olive green cotton. French soldiers also in 1940 were wearing neckties and shirts with button-down collars. Very chic!

 

[shadowrider]

I doubt that ties were ever wrapped twice around the neck; but they were indeed cut shorter. I have a few of my late grandfather's, probably from the 1960s, that have a square tip and end a couple of inches above my navel. I think it makes for a very sporty look with jeans.

On a different tie-knot related note, a while ago on TV I heard a guy saying he was assaulted, and they tried to strangle him by pulling on his tie. But since his father had taught him how to do a "double knot", that didn't work. I've ever since wondered what kind of knot that is.

 

[BlueTrain]

When I was in college, finishing up in 1971 when the so-called Edwardian style was in and ties were wide, I recall seeing a few older gentlemen in town for football games wearing their necktie without the end being pushed through the knot. Instead it was just looped over, as an ascot would be. I guess they just didn't like big knots under their chin(s).

As for a necktie with jeans, that seems a little over the top, like something you'd see in a catalogue aimed at younger men. I never did see how you could wrap a tie around your neck twice, although I have to admit I've never tried it. However, I should note that French soldiers (again) in WWI wore a "cravat" with a collarless shirt and it was indeed wrapped around the neck twice and tied with a "flat knot," meaning the ends were just done up with one loop, if you follow me.

I've never heard of a double-knot, though. But in the 1950s and 1960s, clip-on neckties were not uncommon, at least in the circles I went around in. Can't go wrong with them, provided they don't fall off. But even if that happened, it wouldn't get lost because you would invariably be wearing a tie tack or clasp.

 

[MisterGrey]

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I was taught that the end of your tie should reach the bottom edge of your belt; no lower, no higher. Almost every day I am visually assaulted by guys whose ties only reach to the middle of their abdomen or those that reach all the way to their crotch. Is it that hard? Or do people simply not look in the mirror? Or perhaps my persnickety judgements are just a sign of a snooty and out-dated personality.

Bottom edge of the belt seems a bit long to me, though I wouldn't call it entirely inappropriate; maybe the extreme end of acceptable. IMO, anything in the vicinity of the belt buckle/waistband is appropriate. However, I also see your location as Austria; perhaps it's a regional variation?

As for a necktie with jeans, that seems a little over the top, like something you'd see in a catalogue aimed at younger men.

Though I don't know if there was a precedent to it, it seems this look really became part of mainstream fashion in the 1980s, when blending elements of casual fashion and power dress became popular. Think Michael J. Fox as Alex P. Keaton. With nice, dark jeans and the right shoes it can really put off an Ivy Leagu-y, sophisticated vibe, but you've got to have the confidence and attitude to do it correctly.

 

[emigran]

It seems to be more difficult to buy a suit or sports jacket that will button without the lapels flaring out. Either I'm bigger than I think I am or I'm not buying expensive clothing. At any rate, I wear a necktie most days but rarely a suit anymore.

It seems to me that Trump has his obviously bespoke wardrobe tailored so it drapes properly on his frame without splaying outward while he stands...

 

[drcube01]

It seems to me that Trump has his obviously bespoke wardrobe tailored so it drapes properly on his frame without splaying outward while he stands...

Not according to this article. Or my lying eyes. Not trying to get political here, but Trump does look very sloppy for a guy who wears multi-thousand-dollar suits every day.

 

[Bigger Don]

This isn't about four-in-hand versus Windsor or half-Windsor. It's about tying a necktie so that's it's short. I don't know why I thought of it but maybe because of something I noticed in an old movie.

Once upon a time, provably sixty years ago, my father mentioned to me that, before WWII, some men would put the necktie around the neck twice and so produce a result that had the ends of the tie come to about the middle of the chest. One does sometimes see it in old movies and photographs but not that often. I've never attempted it myself but it is a curious practice.

Anyone else ever hear of doing something like that?

My problem is being a big guy with a 18 1/2 neck and prominent gut who thinks only the full Windsor is a proper knot. I have to find ties long enough that I get the effect you mentioned.

 

[FedOregon]

If you're extra tall, have a big neck, or the tie material is rather thick, you'll have to either buy a longer tie or use a knot other than the Windsor.

I read up on about 10 or 12 knots that have been used over the decades and settled on the Four In Hand, which my father taught me as a boy of 12 or so, and I use it to force some bit of asymmetry into my look and - in a reflective manner - to remember my Dad.

Being strictly hard-wired for symmetry, I rebelled early on from the Four In Hand that Dad taught me and, through trial and error, taught myself to tie a Windsor knot in front of the bathroom mirror. An older boy in church wore that nice Windsor knot and I just had to tie my own tie the same way as he did.

I never did warm up much to the half Windsor, so when I wanted my tie to end up longer, without the short end needing a tie tack way up high to keep the ends together, I used the Four In Hand, or - especially - the Simple (or Oriental) Knot. A super clean, easy knot, it uses fewer turns and therefore less tie length to finish the knot.

Fat ties, usually polyester or other inexpensive ties, IME, make a huge finished knot and a Windsor know doesn't work so good, for my taste. That's when I really like the Simple/Oriental knot, or the Four In Hand.

The above posted pictures of 4 knots (post #5 by Willybob) shows a knot called the Shell. I learned this as the Pratt, or Shelby, Knot and use it when I want a little more symmetry in the knot while using less length, and ending up with a smaller finished knot than a Windsor.

This is a page I ran across recently that has diagrams and even video showing how to tie the various knots, some of which are pretty wild and have exceptionally fat finished knots. I tried several of the listed knots but still like my Fab Four:

1) Windsor
2) Four in Hand
3) Simple/Oriental
4) Pratt/Shelby

http://www.ties.com/how-to-tie-a-tie/windsor