Tuxedo Rental

[Edward]

Just because men here wear a tux at their wedding doesn't mean the event is being held in the evening...sadly.

Ah.... I suppose that, again, is symptomatic of the decline of formalwear in society in general - most folks don't know how and when to wear it. I should think, though, in Mr Hargist's case, the "after six" rule is acceptably bent by slipping in just an hour earlier...

I have one other question, gents. What are your opinions regarding waistcoats? I kind of like them over cummerbunds, but how necessary are they really? I think I'm definitely going with a white waistcoat with my black tux, but I was wondering what your views might be.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think some of the responses up here have misunderstood the intent of this comment - by "over" you mean "in preference to", as opposed to physically worn over, yes? DB jackets, of course, should not have either underneath them, as the jacket will cover the waistband (the purpose of both cummerbund and waistcoat). With a black jacket, I very much prefer a waistcoat myself. Traditionally, I have veered towards black, though a white waistcoat also looks good, and would certainly have a more authentic 30s look to it. With a white/ivory jacket, worn during the Summer season or in the tropics, I would never wear a waistcoat, always a cummberbund. The very point of the white jacket (typically lighter in fabric) is as a concession to warmer conditions, so to wear a waistcoat with it somewhat defeats its purpose. A coloured cummerbund would be my preference here (generally a burgundy for me - have one in this colour in each of satin and velvet); I also tend to wear a burgundy silk pocket square with this ensemble. Bow tie should never be anything other than black - though with South Seas Dress, I believe scarlet is acceptable, no?

 

[benstephens]

Just out of interest for my research into 1920s/30s menswear. When was a white waistcoat worn with black tie? all my 1920s and 1930s menswear catologues all show them with a black wasitcoat.

I would like to see some pictures please.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[benstephens]

I have one

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...org.mozilla:en-GB:official&sa=N&start=36&um=1

 

[Chasseur]

Here is a photo from the excellent blacktie guide:

 

[benstephens]

Yes, I thought it was more of a 20s fashion than a 30s fashion, That was what was throwing me I was sure by the 1930s it was more usual to wear a blcak waistcoat.

Interestingly I remember seeing a very early jacket (Just post WW1) that came with a white jacket, a completely original set which was nice.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[hargist]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think some of the responses up here have misunderstood the intent of this comment - by "over" you mean "in preference to", as opposed to physically worn over, yes?

Yes, that is correct. I did mean "in preference to." I would never wear a cummerbund with a waistcoat any more than I would wear a belt with suspenders.

I think I'm going to go with the white waistcoat. It's a great classic look.

Now I just have to decide on whether to wear a wing collar or a turndown collar. I'm leaning towards a turndown collar because my ceremony technically starts in the afternoon with the reception going into the evening. I think a turndown collar is a good compromise.

 

[Chasseur]

My knowledge is VERY limited, but my understanding is that in the US it remained something worn with black tie into the early 1930s, but by 1933 or 34 it was out of fashion. Or perhaps it went out of fashion about 1930 and then had a small resurgence in 1932-34. I can't remember.

 

[avedwards]

Just a quick thing about cummerbund vs white waistcoat; for my prom next week I decided not to wear a white waistcoat, or any waistcoat for that matter, as my DJ has notched lapels (it's otherwise correct) and that would seem too informal for the formality of the white waistcoat. A black cummerbund instead I thought as my DJ is midnight blue and burgundy would be too much colour with the blue (as it won't be dark for a few hours and the blue will be visible). Does anyone agree with my reasoning for a change ?

 

[Dan D]

Type of collar

Dear Hargist,
As I understand it, a wing collar is technically only appropriate for white tie and tails: when wearing a dinner jacket, one is supposed to wear a turned-down collar with a black bow tie. Wing collars only with white bow-tie and formal tailcoat.

But then tradition is always there to be played with...

 

[Dan D]

Cummerbund

Dear Avedwards,
A cummerbund produces a nice lengthening effect of the dark colour of the trousers, and makes one appear taller and slimmer, I think: a classic look, and always flattering! As long as there's not too much of a clash between the midnight blue, which always looks more black under electric lighting than anything actually black, and the black of your proposed cummerbund during the prom, it should be a great ensemble.

 

[anon`]

Dear Hargist,
As I understand it, a wing collar is technically only appropriate for white tie and tails: when wearing a dinner jacket, one is supposed to wear a turned-down collar with a black bow tie. Wing collars only with white bow-tie and formal tailcoat.

But then tradition is always there to be played with...

The soft-front shirt with attached turndown collar didn't start appearing with black tie until the '30s, if memory serves. Prior to that, the same stiff-front tunic with to-attach wing collar that one wore with white tie was pressed into service with black tie.

In the context of black tie, neither is necessarily more correct than the other, though the wing collar is rather more formal and I don't think they look "right" with a double-breasted tuxedo jacket, or anything in a tropical colour.

Between the two, I personally think that the soft-fronted turndown is the more versatile option in this day and age (being well-suited to any black tie combination), and also think now that the modern wing collar is never an acceptable option! But I would dearly love to add a stiff-front tunic to my closet with a collection of nice, high collars. These seem to help one get away with wearing a topper with a tuxedo nicely

 

[Feraud]

Don't forget..
http://207.218.231.242/~thefedor/showthread.php?t=7058

 

[Edward]

Yes, I thought it was more of a 20s fashion than a 30s fashion, That was what was throwing me I was sure by the 1930s it was more usual to wear a blcak waistcoat.

Interestingly I remember seeing a very early jacket (Just post WW1) that came with a white jacket, a completely original set which was nice.

Kindest Regards

Ben

Ben, you may well be very correct - my knowledge is sadly lacking on the finer details here. I had it in my head that black tie started to appear on the party circuit on a regular basis from about 1930, but I could ell be very wrong. when did it first appear as semi-formal wear?

The soft-front shirt with attached turndown collar didn't start appearing with black tie until the '30s, if memory serves. Prior to that, the same stiff-front tunic with to-attach wing collar that one wore with white tie was pressed into service with black tie.

In the context of black tie, neither is necessarily more correct than the other, though the wing collar is rather more formal and I don't think they look "right" with a double-breasted tuxedo jacket, or anything in a tropical colour.

I know what you mean. I have often worn the same attached-wing collar shirt as I wear with white tie (I know, not a separate collar, shame on me lol ) with my early 40s db dj. This 'works' well enough to my eye, but by preference a turndown collar would be what I would reach for every time with black tie. The relative informality of a white jacket requires a turndown collar, ideally, in my eyes..... that said, there is something darkly appealing in throwing caution to the wind there.... maybe it's the potential it has in my mind to imply that, rather than wearing the 'wrong' shirt, one simply has many black-tie evenings, that the 'more correct' shirts are in one's laundry basket, not having had the time to be laundered and pressed before the next event. [huh]

Yes, that is correct. I did mean "in preference to." I would never wear a cummerbund with a waistcoat any more than I would wear a belt with suspenders.

lol

 

[David V]

Dear Hargist,
As I understand it, a wing collar is technically only appropriate for white tie and tails: when wearing a dinner jacket, one is supposed to wear a turned-down collar with a black bow tie. Wing collars only with white bow-tie and formal tailcoat.

But then tradition is always there to be played with...

Regional differences.
This comes up often on the men's clothing fora. Frowned upon by those in the know in the UK. Smiled upon by those in the know in the US.

You put vinegar on your chips and I put ketchup on my fries.

 

[Dan D]

Regional differences

Absolutely, and thank goodness for them: wouldn't life be terribly dull if we all thought and wore the same things ?! Wardrobes and conversation would be uniform (no pun intended) and depressing. Huzzah for variation in all things in life!

 

[Dan D]

Differences in all things...

...except, of course, I should have added, for differences in my pay-cheque each month, which mean More Deductions At Source, which is never good...

 

[avedwards]

Dear Avedwards,
A cummerbund produces a nice lengthening effect of the dark colour of the trousers, and makes one appear taller and slimmer, I think: a classic look, and always flattering! As long as there's not too much of a clash between the midnight blue, which always looks more black under electric lighting than anything actually black, and the black of your proposed cummerbund during the prom, it should be a great ensemble.

I don't think I need to be any taller or slimmer as I already am 6'1" and especially slim these days (bad health). My decision to wear a cummerbund was entirely a matter of the correct lack of formality to match my more informal DJ. Unfortunately my prom will start before it is dark (though after 6:00pm) so the blue will show for a while as it is visible under natural light. Either way, the black cummerbund seems perfect and I've been lucky enough to find a NOS '50s one. I will post a picture of the ensemble within the next few days so people can tell me if I look suave or just stupid.

 

[dhermann1]

Speaking of those high collars, I have occasionally had a hankering to replicate what I call the Neville Chamberlain look, that is, the standard suit "in the City" worn by businessmen in the 20's. The sack coat, with the striped trousers, waistcoat, spats, and high collar. Not quite as formal as all those foreign ministers at Versailles, but like what a Member of Parliament might have worn around 1932.
BTW, a good source for a high collar shirt, suitable for white tie and tails is T M Lewin, in the UK. I got one for about $60 US.

 

[Blackl3232]

Now I just have to decide on whether to wear a wing collar or a turndown collar. I'm leaning towards a turndown collar because my ceremony technically starts in the afternoon with the reception going into the evening. I think a turndown collar is a good compromise.

I would definitely recommend a wing collar if you're wearing a white waistcoat. I don't like the look of a wing collar with either a black waistcoat or a cummerbund, but it's the only one that looks right with a white waistcoat to me.

 

[Chasseur]

I've always thought a white waistcoat with black tie looked best with a wing collar, and a black waistcoat (or cumberbund) with a turndown collar. Just me.