TUX!

[Wild Root]

Well, you may know this but all tail tuxes never buttoned in front. Only cutaway coats buttoned in the front. The classic tail coat always was left open with the buttons being pure decoration. The shawl collar vest with three button closure was the vest to be worn with tails. Now, the vest to be worn with a cutaway would be a gray double breasted peaked lapelled vest.

Root.

PS As for the Norfolk, knickers are the only proper pants to be worn with it. Never seen a Norfolk with long pants. Come on JP, you can do it!

 

[Mycroft]

Do tails have pockets in their jacket tails?

 

[jamespowers]

As for the Norfolk, knickers are the only proper pants to be worn with it. Never seen a Norfolk with long pants. Come on JP, you can do it!

Uh, no I can't. I guess I will have to settle for this norfolk with long pants from 1916:

if I can find one.

Either one of these will do too.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Wild Root]

Very good. I agree on this. Tuxes were worn in not so formal places back then they were just a suit with satin or silk lapels and such. Black tie is for dinner I believe. White tie is for Grand Balls, the Opera and stage performances.

As for the waist coat, you got that right! It's not to be longer then your coat! I have seen some guys wear tails and a vest that isn't the correct vest to be worn, like a 6 button vest. That stuff makes me sick.

Mycroft, the only pockets that were on a tail coat were the upper outer breast pocket where a kerchief would go and the inside pocket. In the early years some could find a pocket in the tails. I have seen this but it was mostly done in the 10's -20's.

Root.

 

[jamespowers]

I have a 1916 example of both types of tuxedos.

The Formal Evening Dress in the forefront is the formal evening dress tuxedo. The Tuxedo further back is the tuxedo for informal evening functions. The 1940s version of this buttons much higher. The black Cutaway Frock is dress for special day functions. Lastly the white tuxedo is something not seen very often but it is for summer evening functions. Notice the straw boater in place of the tophat.
I hope that helps to straighten out the differences.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Wild Root]

Cool stuff JP. I have never seen the white one before.

Well done!

Root.

 

[gandydancer]

Nice illustration.
However, I guess I'm not making my point. A tailcoat is NOT a "tuxedo". A tuxedo does not have tails. A tailcoat is not a "white tie tuxedo". The tailcoat is far older, and more formal. The tuxedo was a rebellion against the tailcoat.

In a world where a shirt with a collar and leather shoes are considered formal wear I do not think you can get your point across, OldHat. I started to comment about it myself and decided it was probably useless. Words just don't seem to mean the same thing they used to.

PS: I do not think you mentioned that gray is technically morning (actually daytime) wear, rather than evening wear.

 

[Wild Root]

Now Oldhat before you get all bent out of shape I'd like to tell you that I KNOW THE DIFFERANCE! A tail coat is not a tux! However today it is considered a tux. Any thing black with satin lapels or what not is a tux by today’s standards. I'm a man of old fashioned understanding so, a tux is known to me as double or single breasted black wool with satin or silk lapels and detailing down the pants. When I started this thread I used the word Tux to say I have formal evening wear.

A cutaway is not a tux ether! Gray is the color to be worn in the day time. A black cutaway with black and gray striped pants and a gray wool double breasted vest is proper for a Groom to wear wile getting married.

In the Victorian years a morning coat was a cutaway that was gray and striped pants with a gray top hat. Like so.

Now this is what was proper for a wedding.

I'll post more photos when I find them.

Root.

 

[gandydancer]

The question in my mind is, is this a pendulum that swings back and forth, so that people will be dressing better at some point in the future? Is there some limit to how "casual" and slovenly people are willing to become? Or will we see a time when "formal" means bothering to put on a g-string.. maybe owning one in black with a matching pair of flip-flops for weddings and funerals?

Is that what we really want?

Actually it has been slowly improving over all since the 70's when formal seemed to mean you had taken a shower that week.

However, in my memory (I was born in '43 and memory is clear from about '48) it has never been like in the movies. My dad had a suit, tie, topcoat, and hat, but I just found out (page 125, Guinness Guide to 20th Centry Fashion) that was only because the government gave them to him when he got out of the service. He wore them seldomly that I remember. Since I have had two-three suits, a half-dozen sportcoats, and many hats over the years, I guess I dress better then he did on the average (I think I have also dressed worse than he ever did from time to time).

Most of the crowd scenes in 50's movies were shot in the financial district of NYC at lunch time which is why everyone was wearing a suit and tie. People got home from work and immediately took of the coat and tie. Jeans and tee shits were not considered appropriate wear for school in the early '50s but were by the end. Still many people did dress up (suit and tie) to go out in the evening.

So, I guess the answer is that like a real pendlulum, it swings back and forth, but the swing gets a bit shorter each time. The best, and the worst, of the old days will never come back.

 

[Wild Root]

What, you think your insightful knowledge is falling on def ears? Man, you’re really getting on my nerves. Old Hat, knock off the insults! I have friends (LOTS OF THEM) that consider a tail coat to be a tux. These are friends out side the Fedora Lounge mind you. Most of my life they were referred to as a tux with tails. Now, that is wrong and I know now the difference. You must remember that the mainstream slob knows little about what the difference is. Sure they know one has tails and the other has no tails. But to them they both are tuxedos, just a different style of such. Just take a look on ebay and you'll know what I mean. Just type "TUX" and you'll get plenty of tails in that search. I'm not an idiot and I resent your poor cat and dog comparison. No need to get nasty with a fellow team member! You obviously know a lot more about proper dressing then the average slob. But, I’m not the average slob! Like you I know the difference. I'm just saying that in the world we live in that wears ripped jeans and buys dressy clothes at WAL*MART and such, they don't know the difference and they couldn’t care less. I know more then 10 people who I could show them my set of tails and they would say: Nice Tux!

The people here I would say are quite savvy for the most part. We're a rare breed who really cares about dressing and how to go about it.

Keeping it classy,

Root.

PS. The Cutaway has tails, but you wouldn’t wear it to a white tie event.

 

[Johnnysan]

The people here I would say are quite savvy for the most part. We're a rare breed who really cares about dressing and how to go about it.

I hate to jump into the middle of a fray, but to Old Hat's defense, I have to say that I entirely agree with his posts. I have learned a tremendous amount in just a short time here and many of my misconceptions have been cleared up by a through reading of the discussions between some of the more senior members of this board.

This forum is indeed frequented by folks who are especially savvy about dressing and how to go about it and it is for that very reason that we have an obligation to use the terminology of style and fashion appropriately and correctly. If striving for correctness impies that someone is being uptight, then count me in that group.

If we want to keep what we love alive, then we have to pass along what we know. If not us, then who?

 

[BellyTank]

Both of you are correct in opposite extremes- even more correct if you acknowledge each others' correctitude.
Correct as far as formal etiquette is concerned and also what the common, contemporary vernacular is understood as.
Formal, sartorial versus layman-speak.

This is what I see...

BT.

 

[Wild Root]

Ok what ever. I guess I'm just talking through my hat. I have worn vintage for over 10 years and I guess I don’t' know any thing about it then. Look comrade, you're not getting the whole picture so, I advise you to re-read what I have posted. I'm not saying what others think is correct, I'm just stating a fact about today's way of thinking. Not saying that its right, but just pointing out what the average guy would know. Old Hat is a smart guy and he is very knowledgeable! I have nothing against him. I know a lot from living a vintage life style! I can’t say I know every thing but when some one talks down to me I don't take it see!

That's all I have to say and that I wish I never even started this new thread to share my new item of antique apparel. Why? Because some one saw it far more important to correct one’s choice of words then to say: Good job friend, happy for you!

Root.

PS. There will be no photos of my set of tails in this thread. Sorry, I don’t feel it worth my time. The fun has been sucked right out of it for me.

 

[BellyTank]

...Hold the front page Root!-
I see your side.
I see both sides.
You two fellas is different types see-
coming from different places...
That's all...

BT.

 

[Wild Root]

Apologies accepted. Old hat, I don’t have a tux, I have a set of fine tails. I knew the difference but I hate to kick a dead horse but all I was saying was that most people I come in contact with know all formal clothes to be tuxedos! Some with tails and some with out, just something that I have noticed among most Americans today.

Root.

 

[jitterbugdoll]

Having worked in the bridal industry for about four years, I can attest that most people think that all formalwear styles are 'tuxedos'. Trust me, in this day and age when bridal parties dress the groomsmen in colored vests that match the bridesmaid dresses, you can rest assured that people have no clue as to what they are doing!

And in all honestly, most modern folks are too lazy to care anyway!

That’s why I like places like The Fedora Lounge—you run into people who care enough to argue about formalwear (and yes, I have argued about women’s fashion myself )

 

[Johnnysan]

So now that we have dispensed with the unenlightened masses...when are we gonna see some photos of you in this smokin' set of threads?? Sounds like a terrific find!

 

[jamespowers]

So now that we have dispensed with the unenlightened masses...when are we gonna see some photos of you in this smokin' set of threads?? Sounds like a terrific find!

Yeah! and when are we going to see pictures of you in that great Dobbs you got?

Regards to all,

J

 

[Wild Root]

Photos eh? Well, I'm not sure that it will be any time soon. I need to find a vest to wear with it. I guess I could take some photos of me in it this weekend. We'll see.

Oh, about the Dobb's, Forget it.

Root.

 

[jamespowers]

Oh, about the Dobb's, Forget it.

Aw, C'mon! Just one picture. We are all dying to see your nice new hat.
It will be easy just put it on and snap a picture. :cheers1:

Regards to all,

J