Trilby Vs. Fedora...what's the difference?

[TheDane]

Actually Robert (RLK) did much of the initial work and Spencer (Dinerman) found the Knox the Hatter advertisement

Yes, I noticed when I re-read the thread I just linked to. Very interesting

Anyway, I still stand by my most important point: We should never see Wikipedia - or any other part of WWW - as just a well of truth. There's as much BS "out there" as there's truth.

"Information Technology" is not a very well chosen word. The fact that "information" often is used as a synonym for "data" in programming circles may be the origin. It doesn't necessarily mean, that you get more informed by using it - and we in the "Information Age" may not be that well informed after all

 

[mayserwegener]

I always look for terms like Fedora and Homburg in the pre WWII European (mostly German and Austrian) documents I encounter but have yet to find any(other than Moeckel of Bad Homburg calling all their hats Homburg hats). This is my focus.

 

[mayserwegener]

Also pre WWII German and Austrian hat trade papers tend to use very generic terms like Soft and Stiff Felt. Also finish and fur type. For example: Wool Velour Soft Felt Hat

I think it's best to reference hat trade publications (The American Hatter, German Hat Maker News, ect) but also need to be aware of the national bias.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

With all respect, I don't belive you're right. That part of history has been thoroughly looked into by our fellow Lounger Brad Bowers. As I remember it, he re-wrote history quite a bit - and even had some encyclopedia articles changed (not Wikipedia).

He has covered the subject in posts here on TFL, though I can't find them right now. I'm sure Brad will comment this, if he sees this thread

Thanks for the link about fedoras in the 19th century by the way, very interesting. I don't see any real differences in any version of the fedora's history though, in that most references to 'fedoras' are post 1882 (granted there are a few obscur mentions pre that date) & that a particular type of hat was marketed as a 'fedora' after the success of the play. Am I missing something ?

 

[TheDane]

Am I missing something ?

Did Sarah Bernhardt ever wear such a hat in the play? Not as I read the documentation

 

[Brad Bowers]

Also pre WWII German and Austrian hat trade papers tend to use very generic terms like Soft and Stiff Felt. Also finish and fur type. For example: Wool Velour Soft Felt Hat

I think it's best to reference hat trade publications (The American Hatter, German Hat Maker News, ect) but also need to be aware of the national bias.

Hat trade publications are great sources of industry information, but don't forget the other side of the story - cultural connotations. Hence, our discussion here. Fedora and Trilby are cultural terms, not industry. Steve's right in sticking to his guns that, industry-wide, there were only soft and stiff felt hats. That seems to be universal on both sides of the Atlantic. But colloquial, cultural references to hats are what drive our collective memories and biases.

Case in point: The Bowler/Derby nomenclature. When the Lounge first started in 2003, we were under the impression that there was a physical difference between a Bowler and a Derby. We debated those differences. We finally realized that there is no difference except the colloquial terms for the hat based on country of origin. While British and American manufacturers both called them stiff felts, their peoples called them Bowlers and Derbies, respectively. I think, since the stiff felt lasted a bit longer in Britain than in the US, that public perception in this country primarily associates the hat with Britain, and thus most Americans (even on the Lounge) now refer to them as Bowlers, without any regard to the fact that we called them Derbies for well over a century here in the US. (This pains me.)

The only aspect of the hat manufacturing industry that needed to refer to various hat styles by their colloquial names is marketing. Advertisers were well aware what terms resonated with the public, and stayed in the public lexicon year after year, and would market hats as such. In this thread, post #40, 1920s/early 30s fedoras, I examined the best remaining, published sources we have for the cultural references of the term Fedora: newspapers. I discuss the evolution of the term as it was applied to a soft felt hat, and its transition into what the public tends to think of today as a Fedora. That transition was in full bloom in the 1920s.

Trilby falls into this category, in that it was a British term, and not in use in America. Today, the public tries to distinguish between the two terms, since the idea that we have separate terms seems to dictate that they are indeed two separate categories. Thus, confusion sets in, and we end up with the idea that a Trilby is merely a narrower-brimmed Fedora. Public perception is driving that change, whether we agree with it or not.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

 

[TheDane]

In this thread, 1920s/early 30s fedoras, I examined the best remaining, published sources we have for the cultural references of the term Fedora: newspapers.

Thank you, Brad. That was the other thread I was searching for. Those history researching threads are invaluable! They are a very important factor, that I enjoy TFL so much

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Did Sarah Bernhardt ever wear such a hat in the play? Not as I read the documentation

Good point. And the answer is, maybe . The photo of Oscar Wilde I posted earlier, , is of him supposidly posing as Bernhardt, wearing a copy of the hat worn by her in the play.
The French reports of the play also mention 'the hat' which was apparently an unusual hat for the time, prehaps why it was so remarkable. But then again, the only evidence is written accounts & not photographic................if the myth is better than reality, print the myth.

 

[TheDane]

I haven't read the French reports, and my French is more than rusty these days. I'm not sure either, that the hat, Wilde is wearing, should be a copy of Bernhardt's.

Anyway, lets agree we're not in agreement

 

[mayserwegener]

Thank you, Brad. That was the other thread I was searching for. Those history researching threads are invaluable! They are a very important factor, that I enjoy TFL so much

Yes a great post!

 

[mayserwegener]

Hat trade publications are great sources of industry information, but don't forget the other side of the story - cultural connotations. Hence, our discussion here. Fedora and Trilby are cultural terms, not industry. Steve's right in sticking to his guns that, industry-wide, there were only soft and stiff felt hats. That seems to be universal on both sides of the Atlantic. But colloquial, cultural references to hats are what drive our collective memories and biases.

Case in point: The Bowler/Derby nomenclature. When the Lounge first started in 2003, we were under the impression that there was a physical difference between a Bowler and a Derby. We debated those differences. We finally realized that there is no difference except the colloquial terms for the hat based on country of origin. While British and American manufacturers both called them stiff felts, their peoples called them Bowlers and Derbies, respectively. I think, since the stiff felt lasted a bit longer in Britain than in the US, that public perception in this country primarily associates the hat with Britain, and thus most Americans (even on the Lounge) now refer to them as Bowlers, without any regard to the fact that we called them Derbies for well over a century here in the US. (This pains me.)

The only aspect of the hat manufacturing industry that needed to refer to various hat styles by their colloquial names is marketing. Advertisers were well aware what terms resonated with the public, and stayed in the public lexicon year after year, and would market hats as such. In this thread, post #40, 1920s/early 30s fedoras, I examined the best remaining, published sources we have for the cultural references of the term Fedora: newspapers. I discuss the evolution of the term as it was applied to a soft felt hat, and its transition into what the public tends to think of today as a Fedora. That transition was in full bloom in the 1920s.

Trilby falls into this category, in that it was a British term, and not in use in America. Today, the public tries to distinguish between the two terms, since the idea that we have separate terms seems to dictate that they are indeed two separate categories. Thus, confusion sets in, and we end up with the idea that a Trilby is merely a narrower-brimmed Fedora. Public perception is driving that change, whether we agree with it or not.

Brad
~The Hatted Professor

Brad, Thank you for making this great post!