Toppers Unite

[steur]

Great catch, Stefan, especially in that size!

Thanks, Steve. I usually skip them, but a larger size catches my eye.

 

[Rmccamey]

Magnifico!

P&C Top hat. That's not Habig, but the Dutch (originally from Germany) retailer Peek&Cloppenburg. Still located on Dam square in Amsterdam to this day. This one was made by Spoorenberg, who produced toppers under different brand names, mainly Burton and Ambassador. I bought this one because it's a size 60 and these things are rare in larger sizes. Brim at 6cm and 14cm high. Excellent condition except for some waviness on the sweatband. PM me if you're interested.

 

[steur]

Magnifico!

Thanks, Randy!

 

[JJ Katz]

Hullo gents. Need your expertise in identifying the rough period of a topper and hatbox, please.

First, the markings inside the hat

 

[JJ Katz]

Partly erased stencilling outside the (leather) hatbox and a label inside it

 

[Steve1857]

Partly erased stencilling outside the (leather) hatbox and a label inside it

View attachment 505111

View attachment 505113

View attachment 505114

Woodrow & Sons were hatters to George V and George VI, so hard to say which king the label refers to. However, if I were to stick my neck out, I'd say the former.

I'm basing this on the quality of the case, which looks similar to one I have from the end of WWI.

Can we see more of the hat and inside of the case.

 

[JJ Katz]

Thanks very much for the info, @Steve1857 .
The hat and box are on sale at a local charity shop and I believe they are pricing it a bit low. The hat is in decent shape and a size 7 or slightly larger and just £ 75. The box, which is in quite good shape, is shown as £ 150.
That seems a bit low to me. What do you guys think?
I'll see if I can take some more pics.

 

[Steve1857]

Thanks very much for the info, @Steve1857 .
The hat and box are on sale at a local charity shop and I believe they are pricing it a bit low. The hat is in decent shape and a size 7 or slightly larger and just £ 75. The box, which is in quite good shape, is shown as £ 150.
That seems a bit low to me. What do you guys think?
I'll see if I can take some more pics.

You're welcome JJ.

That sounds expensive to me, but only because I can pick up good Top Hats and leather cases much cheaper here in Denmark.

If both items are in really good condition, the Topper fits, and you really want them, then go for it.

 

[Willem07]

Beaver fur OR silk plush
probably 1850-1870 (based on the box)
Joseph Edwin Ward (Joseph E Ward)
Insignia : Hony soit qui mal y pense (Order of the Garter ?)
on the box : initials (JEW) - from Joseph E Ward
on the box : initials (LTD) - from Limited
Trade mark : The Bredbury Brand
15 cm high
Inside : the word 'Uniou' or 'Union'
The hat is still in perfect condition.
In my opion, a very rare top hat from excellent quality.
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Anyone who can identify the top hat, without stamp.

 

[Willem07]

Beaver fur OR silk plush
probably 1850-1870 (based on the box)
Joseph Edwin Ward (Joseph E Ward)
Insignia : Hony soit qui mal y pense (Order of the Garter ?)
on the box : initials (JEW) - from Joseph E Ward
on the box : initials (LTD) - from Limited
Trade mark : The Bredbury Brand
15 cm high
Inside : the word 'Uniou' or 'Union'
The hat is still in perfect condition.
In my opion, a very rare top hat from excellent quality.
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Anyone who can identify the top hat, without stamp.

 

[Steve1857]

Beaver fur OR silk plush
probably 1850-1870 (based on the box)
Joseph Edwin Ward (Joseph E Ward)
Insignia : Hony soit qui mal y pense (Order of the Garter ?)
on the box : initials (JEW) - from Joseph E Ward
on the box : initials (LTD) - from Limited
Trade mark : The Bredbury Brand
15 cm high
Inside : the word 'Uniou' or 'Union'
The hat is still in perfect condition.
In my opion, a very rare top hat from excellent quality.
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Anyone who can identify the top hat, without stamp.

As I've mentioned in another thread, this is a really nice find, Willem.

Bredbury on the box points to Joseph E. Ward as that's where the factory was.

Hard to say if the Top Hat was made by Jos. E. Ward, though.

The liner logo is pretty ubiquitous. For example, here's one from another Manchester hat maker, Oldham & Fogg, from their ca. 1920s trade catalogue, which I happily own.

I would suggest you contact the Hat Museum in Stockport, Manchester. Send them your photos and ask for an opinion. If anyone would know, they would.

 

[Willem07]

As I've mentioned in another thread, this is a really nice find, Willem.

Bredbury on the box points to Joseph E. Ward as that's where the factory was.

Hard to say if the Top Hat was made by Jos. E. Ward, though.

The liner logo is pretty ubiquitous. For example, here's one from another Manchester hat maker, Oldham & Fogg, from their ca. 1920s trade catalogue, which I happily own.

View attachment 506681

View attachment 506682

I would suggest you contact the Hat Museum in Stockport, Manchester. Send them your photos and ask for an opinion. If anyone would know, they would.

Hi Steve, I already contact the Hat Museum in Stockport (via FB - messenger) and they reply it is a very nice and old top. They don't have the box, it must be rare. I find out (pro top hat websites) that NOT all the hats before 1900 have a name, under the logo, emblem or Garter. And nothing to find about the trademark 'The Bredbury Brand'...

 

[Topper]

Beaver fur OR silk plush
probably 1850-1870 (based on the box)
Joseph Edwin Ward (Joseph E Ward)
Insignia : Hony soit qui mal y pense (Order of the Garter ?)
on the box : initials (JEW) - from Joseph E Ward
on the box : initials (LTD) - from Limited
Trade mark : The Bredbury Brand
15 cm high
Inside : the word 'Uniou' or 'Union'
The hat is still in perfect condition.
In my opion, a very rare top hat from excellent quality.
Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Anyone who can identify the top hat, without stamp.

Given calico shell, and finish possibly a silk plush, whilst calico shells can be also be covered by felt ( and as such in theory beaver felt) not as common) . Look to see if there is diagional line ( often hard to see) join on left side of side crown, where the plush fabric would be joined, or if have wear on tip edge, then may show stitching where plush is sewn together.

 

[Willem07]

Given calico shell, and finish possibly a silk plush, whilst calico shells can be also be covered by felt ( and as such in theory beaver felt) not as common) . Look to see if there is diagional line ( often hard to see) join on left side of side crown, where the plush fabric would be joined, or if have wear on tip edge, then may show stitching where plush is sewn together.

Thank you for the reply, in attachment a larger photo. Can you see the glister (glitter) ? Someone told me you could only find this in beaver felt .... ? And I didn't find the diagional line. Regards

 

[Steve1857]

Thank you for the reply, in attachment a larger photo. Can you see the glister (glitter) ? Someone told me you could only find this in beaver felt .... ? And I didn't find the diagional line. Regards

Like Topper, I'm in doubt as to whether or not it's beaver felt or silk plush. I'm more inclined to the latter.

Photos help somewhat, but the best would be to have it in hand.

Either way, hat and box are still a great find. If it fits, enjoy!

 

[steur]

I'm with Steve and @Topper on this one, Willem. Unlikely that it is a genuine beaver fur top hat. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. The shape doesn't suggest it to begin with and the luster of the hat is more consistent with a silk plush hat. Genuine beaver fur top hats seem to be a bit less slik and lose their black colour over time and fade. Aside from that: silk as a material to replace beaver fur was already used in the majority of cases quite early in the 19th century, with beaver in serious decline from 1830 onwards and by 1840 almost all top hats were made with silk plush (see: "the Top Hat" by Debbie Henderson). Your hat is certainly old, but not that old.
Here are some examples of early beaver fur top hats. Other colours than black were quite common.

 

[Willem07]

I'm with Steve and @Topper on this one, Willem. Unlikely that it is a genuine beaver fur top hat. Not impossible, but highly unlikely. The shape doesn't suggest it to begin with and the luster of the hat is more consistent with a silk plush hat. Genuine beaver fur top hats seem to be a bit less slik and lose their black colour over time and fade. Aside from that: silk as a material to replace beaver fur was already used in the majority of cases quite early in the 19th century, with beaver in serious decline from 1830 onwards and by 1840 almost all top hats were made with silk plush (see: "the Top Hat" by Debbie Henderson). Your hat is certainly old, but not that old.
Here are some examples of early beaver fur top hats. Other colours than black were quite common.


View attachment 507644 View attachment 507645 View attachment 507646 View attachment 507647 View attachment 507648 View attachment 507649

You are right - 100 % - thanks for the advice. Regards

 

[steur]

Somewhere above I posted a large size top hat. It has come and gone, but last week my eye was caught by this.
Burton top hat. Size 61 with the brim at 5,5cm and the crown at 14cm. Allegedly this hat once belonged to the mayor of Rotterdam, but seller had no other information than that from the an who brought it in to her. If true the most likely candidate is Pieter Oud, who held the post twice, from 1938 until 1941 and from 1945 until 1952. Before that he was minister of Finance. Coincidentally born in Purmerend, only a few miles away from where I live. No way to back this claim up with evidence, but a nice thought anyway.
It is an older top hat, lined with cloth, which we don't see when Spoorenberg, the makers of Burton hats, started up the factory again post war in 1949.

Interesting to note that apparently they didn't have a sweatband large enough, so they constructed one. Top hats can't be anlarged and the sweatband is not a replacement so thisis orginal to the hat.

The possible previous owner of the hat mr Pieter Oud on the far left in this picture of 1933.

 

[Steve1857]

Somewhere above I posted a large size top hat. It has come and gone, but last week my eye was caught by this.
Burton top hat. Size 61 with the brim at 5,5cm and the crown at 14cm. Allegedly this hat once belonged to the mayor of Rotterdam, but seller had no other information than that from the an who brought it in to her. If true the most likely candidate is Pieter Oud, who held the post twice, from 1938 until 1941 and from 1945 until 1952. Before that he was minister of Finance. Coincidentally born in Purmerend, only a few miles away from where I live. No way to back this claim up with evidence, but a nice thought anyway.
It is an older top hat, lined with cloth, which we don't see when Spoorenberg, the makers of Burton hats, started up the factory again post war in 1949.

Interesting to note that apparently they didn't have a sweatband large enough, so they constructed one. Top hats can't be anlarged and the sweatband is not a replacement so thisis orginal to the hat.

View attachment 514863 View attachment 514864 View attachment 514865 View attachment 514866 View attachment 514867 View attachment 514868 View attachment 514869

The possible previous owner of the hat mr Pieter Oud on the far left in this picture of 1933.
View attachment 514870

Wonderful looking Topper, Stefan. Love the photo of the gentlemen in their Top Hats and finery.

 

[steur]

Wonderful looking Topper, Stefan. Love the photo of the gentlemen in their Top Hats and finery.

Thanks, Steve. The gentlemen are members of the second cabinet of prime minister Colijn.