Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[MikeBravo]

The problem is when kids are being forced to define themselves in terms of sex when they're still, basically, children. It has nothing to do with what you do -- I don't imagine your shows admit people under 18, right? The problem is exactly what these girls in Waterville pinpointed it as -- sex being used by corporate entitites to sell stuff to teenagers, and to make them even more susceptible to that marketing by making them as insecure as possible about their bodies and their sense of self. This kind of marketing couldn't care less about the emotional well-being of the girls it's pitching to -- all it wants to do is sell them crap. And it uses sex as the marketing vehicle precisely because it knows that's where adolescent girls are most insecure and vulnerable. *That* is what I consider a vicious, evil business.

I wholeheartedly agree, and thanks for bringing the thread back to it's initial premise.

The issue I have is the constant bombardment of billboards, television ads and programmes that include overt sexuality in their very fabric. Not to mention women being submissive to men (between their legs as someone mentioned in this thread) to sell shoes, car insurance or whathaveyou.

I cetainly don't have any issues with Burlesque, or stripping for that matter and I don't believe they have an impact on young women as much as television, if at all.

 

[MikeBravo]

As for the girl being called names from a moving car, I don't believe society as a whole respects or condones that type of behaviour. I also imagine that if the parents knew about the behaviour of their son, they would be appalled, at least in most cases (I hope).

And it is certainly incorrect to say that it is a modern phenomenon (not that anybody in this thread did say that). In the seventies my sister and I were walking along the footpath when a car deliberately swerved off the road and onto the grass, missing us by only a few feet, then took of laughing like idiots (which they were). A similar thing happened to me in the nineties as well. In the eighties my mother met a woman who's son had been slashed accross the face with a broken bottle by some guy who jumped out of his car on a main street, totally without any provocation.

Good lord, in ancient Rome there were gangs, one which included the future emperor Nero, that went around stabbing people in the street and dumping their bodies in the gutter. This wasn't approved of by
Roman society either.

Sometimes there are just evil people in the world, no matter how tight or how loose the restriction of society or parents may be

 

[sheeplady]

As for the girl being called names from a moving car, I don't believe society as a whole respects or condones that type of behaviour. I also imagine that if the parents knew about the behaviour of their son, they would be appalled, at least in most cases (I hope).

I think the issue is that this type of behavior has become more socially acceptable. And I hate to say this, but some parents really wouldn't care if their son did it (and perhaps worse or better) would tell their daughter it was a compliment.

I know a grandmother who's 12 year old granddaughter was called a "hussy" and a "flirt" by her teacher. When the parents went in to discuss the issue, the assistant principle said the granddaughter was "Like Peanut Butter." The mother asked what he meant, and he replied, "Well, they're just so creamy and easy to spread." **About a 12 year old girl.** Let that sink in a moment- as inappropriate that was to say about a 18 year old or a 16 year old- the girl hasn't even hit puberty yet.

That is the kind of environment that a lot of people are being raised in. If your assistant principle and your teacher tells you you're a hussy, a slut, a whatever at 12 years old; chances are unless you have a good home environment and a lot of forces counteracting it, you're going to internalize that message and have really low self esteem. It could mean you make some pretty bad choices in life that put you in danger physically or mentally, or that destroy your future.

All because a bunch of people insist on sexualizing children.

 

[LizzieMaine]

As for the girl being called names from a moving car, I don't believe society as a whole respects or condones that type of behaviour. I also imagine that if the parents knew about the behaviour of their son, they would be appalled, at least in most cases (I hope).

Aside from the jackassery of the boys in the cars (I once had a take-out fish dinner thrown at me from a car passing the theatre one night, and the jerks didn't even include the vinegar), the thing that really really bothers me is how the girl in question reacted. She isn't a stick-thin anorectic by any means, but neither is she obese. She's simply a teenager with a healthy shape, and is no way, shape, or manner a "fat a**." And yet, those two words reduced her to tears. Why?

It's because our culture tells us that to be attractive and desirable is a woman's primary duty. And to be attractive and desirable in modern society means to be built like a stick insect. And this poor kid has grown up surrounded by this kind of imagery her entire life -- something I certainly didn't have shoved down my throat when I was her age -- and it's completely warped her self image. Instead of giving the carload of punks the South End Salute and forgetting about it, she brooded about it for days.

That makes me furious. It should make any of us furious. It has nothing to do with strippers or burlesque or moral relativism, and everything to do with basic human decency. We need to stop rationalizing and making excuses for this kind of culture and do like these kids in Waterville are doing. We need to stand up and say ENOUGH.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Welcome to the "I'm Glad It Wasn't Me This Time" Thread.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm glad threads like this make people uncomfortable. A comfortable society is a complacent society -- and no meaningful or worthwhile social progress has ever or will ever be achieved by a complacent society.

 

[MikeBravo]

Welcome to the "I'm Glad It Wasn't Me This Time" Thread.

It's okay, I'll pick myself up and dust myself off

Just kidding, I'm not uncomfortable, I am in agreement. I didn't say we should accept these people, nor should we make excuses for them by saying society or their parents condone what they do. This just makes them stronger and even more determined to go their own way

It is human nature that people will have 100 people say good things about them and not believe it, yet fall to pieces when a complete stranger says something bad about them. Teenagers have always been like that, and not just teenagers.

 

[William Stratford]

That makes me furious. It should make any of us furious. It has nothing to do with strippers or burlesque or moral relativism, and everything to do with basic human decency. We need to stop rationalizing and making excuses for this kind of culture and do like these kids in Waterville are doing. We need to stand up and say ENOUGH.

Alas, it is the moral relativism that stops people acting. They have been told for so long to not judge other people and that there are no absolute standards, only different ones, that apathy, hesitation and confusion have taken people over and they let this thing just happen (or when they do act, their words carry no moral authority because everyone is taught to "do it your way").

If we want this behaviour to stop, we have to rediscover the notion of authority and an absolute morality....and then live by example ourselves instead of showing disdain for that same authority with a "do as I say, not as I do" stance.

It is human nature that people will have 100 people say good things about them and not believe it, yet fall to pieces when a complete stranger says something bad about them. Teenagers have always been like that, and not just teenagers.

Its easier and quicker to knock a house down than to build it, but the house is far stronger when you dont take away the cement and leave just 10,000 individual bricks just stacked together.

 

[lolly_loisides]

Real men:

Great photo, but gender is irrelevant when you're making a stand for what's right. If I could I'd be there in a heartbeat.

 

[Amy Jeanne]

Oh, and Amy Jeanne -- if anybody gives you grief for not being "classy," I'll show them what "not classy" really is. I've always considered you one of the classiest gals in the PR.

HAHA!! Well, I do believe women are more accepting to different variations of the vintage look -- hence why the PR is mostly where I post.

 

[scotrace]

Anybody what picks on LoHa gets shown the door, toot-suite - and will probably be carried out on that door by the other patrons.

(nice to see you, kiddo)

 

[Flicka]

HAHA!! Well, I do believe women are more accepting to different variations of the vintage look -- hence why the PR is mostly where I post.

I'm sorry to say I'm considering retreating there too. The sort of tone that I have experienced on here lately makes me want to go on a rant in the declining standards thread about the absence of manners.

Respect. It's the hallmark of a true gentleman.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Great photo, but gender is irrelevant when you're making a stand for what's right. If I could I'd be there in a heartbeat.

Indeed. I see at least one gal in that crowd (lower right, looking straight into the camera,) but just to keep it fair here's more Real Women young girls ought to look up to instead of cheesy magazine celebrities:

I don't think they cared too much if someone called them "fat a**." Not that anyone would dare.

 

[Flicka]

Yup, those ladies look like they mean business. I especially like the "We'll hold this line until Hell freezes over"-sign.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Anybody what picks on LoHa gets shown the door, toot-suite - and will probably be carried out on that door by the other patrons.

(nice to see you, kiddo)

I agree...good to hear from you Lolitahaze. Since back at post #144, I've been hoping some folks from the pinup thread would chime in...just to add some balance, you know.

AF

 

[Edward]

Indeed, the problem is with the portrayal of adult men in general, however the epitome of the adult man is the father and it is chiefly through fatherhood that boys become men. In a society that devalues fatherhood, boys receive the greatest impediment to their becoming men.

It is certainly the case and certainly sad, that some fathers are no more than little boys themselves. However, to define what it is to be a man by parenthood, something any animal can manage, is questionable at best. Epitome? Many, many of us make an active, informed choice not to become parents. Others are unable. Neither group are any more nor less "men" for that choice or circumstance.

After reading through the last few page of this thread, I just wanted to say thank you LolitaHaze for contributing. Some of the comments directed towards you went past robust discussion & (at least seemed to me) were just plain bullying. You conducted yourself with a dignity that some others didn't.

Bravo.

Anybody what picks on LoHa gets shown the door, toot-suite - and will probably be carried out on that door by the other patrons.

(nice to see you, kiddo)

And it is posts like this that encourage me to hang around on those occasions when I begin to wonder whether the FL is really for me any longer.

I'm sorry to say I'm considering retreating there too. The sort of tone that I have experienced on here lately makes me want to go on a rant in the declining standards thread about the absence of manners.

Respect. It's the hallmark of a true gentleman.

Quite. The sad thing is that all too often they leave altogether.

 

[LolitaHaze]

Anybody what picks on LoHa gets shown the door, toot-suite - and will probably be carried out on that door by the other patrons.

(nice to see you, kiddo)

Now this made my day! Thank you!

 

[LolitaHaze]

I agree...good to hear from you Lolitahaze. Since back at post #144, I've been hoping some folks from the pinup thread would chime in...just to add some balance, you know.

AF

Thank you! Yesterday's conversation was a delight for me! I am sure there will be one or two more like that in me as well as the boring look at me in my new hat posts.

 

[Undertow]

I'm glad threads like this make people uncomfortable. A comfortable society is a complacent society -- and no meaningful or worthwhile social progress has ever or will ever be achieved by a complacent society.

And as much as I'm sure certain elements like to remind us that the Lounge is only a small sub-group of an already small subculture, change starts with small groups just like this.

It's not always pleasant, but I've learned an awful lot about myself and my society through some of these hack and slash threads. Complacency is like a disease, and sometimes we need a little shot to wake us back up.

 

[LizzieMaine]

And as much as I'm sure certain elements like to remind us that the Lounge is only a small sub-group of an already small subculture, change starts with small groups just like this.

It's not always pleasant, but I've learned an awful lot about myself and my society through some of these hack and slash threads. Complacency is like a disease, and sometimes we need a little shot to wake us back up.

Indeed. I know there are people here who are "just in it for the hats and jackets," and that's fine if that's what interests them. But if we are, as we style ourselves, the "Guardians Of The Culture Of The Greatest Generation," there's plenty of room here for discussion that goes beyond counting stitches and measuring armholes.

As for me, I think Howard Beale said it best:

It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out any more. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we're living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, "Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials, and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone."

Well, I'm not going to leave you alone.

I want you to get mad!

I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot. I don't want you to write to your Congressman, because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street.

All I know is that first, you've got to get mad.

You've gotta say, "I'm a human being, g-ddammit! My life has value!"

So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell,

"I'm as mad as hell,

and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"