Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[LolitaHaze]

When a smart, talented 18 year old is sobbing in the corner because some pimply-faced jackass in a Camaro drove by and called her "fat a**" that's when I'm ready to go out and kick over society.

Is that society or bad parenting?

 

[William Stratford]

Thank you to those who understand where I am coming from. While I understand no one is discussing an individual (with the exception of Dita's name being brought up as an individual) but rather a whole, when the tone of the thread begins to slag off those (in general) who choose to use sexuality to get ahead (or as a way of life) it's a bit of a finger point to the individuals like me who choose to do just that. And to say that Dita is nothing more than just a stripper, as one member put it, is saying that I too am nothing more than a stripper, since that is what I do as well.

Since you bring up my post, I will briefly respond.

I'm not degrading myself because I like to get ...(... semi naked for stage).

I disagree, and the idea that someone who works as a stripper is not themselves adding to the notion of women as sexual objects is utter nonsense.

Best we leave it at that though.

 

[LolitaHaze]

Since you bring up my post, I will briefly respond.
I disagree, and the idea that someone who works as a stripper is not themselves adding to the notion of women as sexual objects is utter nonsense.

They absolutely are, but many find nothing wrong with that. My problem was not with you saying that stripping adds to the sexualaztion of women, but to say that, to use your words, "she's a stripper, nothing more" is insulting. You are telling me that I am a stripper and nothing more. Hey there is a person here with feelings, goals, passions, hobbies and interests. While her and I are turning women into sexual objects, you are turning us into inanimate objects with that statement.

Also, if one takes the time to see what all has to happen just for that 8 min performance, you would see there is more than just a stripper adding to the notion of women as sexual objects. There is women adding to the creative minds of women, there are women adding to the business smarts of women, there are women adding to the management skills of women, and more...

 

[William Stratford]

They absolutely are, but many find nothing wrong with that. My problem was not with you saying that stripping adds to the sexualaztion of women, but to say that, to use your words, "she's a stripper, nothing more" is insulting. You are telling me that I am a stripper and nothing more. Hey there is a person here with feelings, goals, passions, hobbies and interest. While her and I are turning women into sexual objects, you are turning us into inanimate objects with that statement.

Dita Von Teese is presented as a stong modern woman who is a good role model, and one often idolised amongst those with a taste for the vintage....and my reference to her being "a stripper and nothing more" is in relation to that. It is not a comment on her humanity, it is saying that for all that she is lauded for all it comes down to is that she strips off her clothes. I am not turning her into an object, but rather am pointing out that she makes one of herself (and of women in general by promoting this image). My apologies if that was not clear - that what she does is not a great role model, its just taking her clothes off and contributing to the idea of women as a sexual object.

Also, if one takes the time to see what all has to happen just for that 8 min performance, you would see there is more than just a stripper adding to the notion of women as sexual objects. There is women adding to the creative minds of women, there are women adding to the business smarts of women, there are women adding to the management skills of women, and more...

Sheer drivel. This claim is up there with the idea that prostitution can be an "empowering" career for women.

I doubt that we are going to find agreement on this.

 

[sheeplady]

Thank you to those who understand where I am coming from. While I understand no one is discussing an individual (with the exception of Dita's name being brought up as an individual) but rather a whole, when the tone of the thread begins to slag off those (in general) who choose to use sexuality to get ahead (or as a way of life) it's a bit of a finger point to the individuals like me who choose to do just that. And to say that Dita is nothing more than just a stripper, as one member put it, is saying that I too am nothing more than a stripper, since that is what I do as well.

I think that it's also part of a larger problem of judging people by their jobs, and *solely* based upon their jobs, as their entire worth to society. What I do isn't the entirety of *who I am.* Reducing me to what I do for pay is pretty stupid, considering that is only a small portion of my time and contribution to society.

On top of that, if you work a job that isn't deemed "good enough" by society, it's even worse. Even our judgement of jobs is incrediby skewed- if you work the right job it's ok if you have a lack of "morals" (as long as you don't take your clothes off). Sex workers don't normally make a living off of unfairly taking hundreds of paid up mortgage holders homes or abusing taxpayer funds; but yet sex workers are seen as less worthy than the worst of the bankers and the politicians. If that isn't a sign of a twisted society- that someone who takes his/her clothes off is seen as less valuable than outright thieves.

 

[Flicka]

What makes you feel this way? Have you ever spent time in the Burlesque community, beyond one or 2 shows? When I say community I mean both the performers and the audience. In my 10 years of performing, I never once felt objectified. Sexualized, yes, because that is part of the point. And at which point I wonder... why is it a sad thing to be looked upon sexually? Keep in mind too, it may be regional. I don't know how the Swedish performers are compared to the States girls -- but even so I can perhaps see your point of view.

Let me say that there is a lot of Bad Burlesque out there. A LOT. Unfortunately this is what many people see. (Same true with Pinup) There are a lot of performers out there who do not understand the true showmanship that goes with both true (classic and neo) Burlesque and Pinup. There are girls out there that are trying to work out their own issues on stage or in photos. However, these girls don't last very long, nor do they climb up the ladder. (Some get through, but not many). I have witnessed this myself and it is uncomfortable to watch. However, at that point it isn't about the act itself (Burlesque or Pinup, or nakedness/porn/sex work)that should be blamed for making girls feel like they need to be a certain way, but the girl themselves. they are making their own choices. It's not the fault of Burlesque or Pinup for making the girls feel they have to be sexual to get anywhere, it is the girl's fault for not understanding or researching all that goes on with what they are trying to accomplish. On top of that you cannot judge any of this for the bad acts that come from it. Burlesque or pinup as a whole are not these girls. The best performers out there, while their title may be pinup or stripper, are actually, business women, seamstresses, designers, models, networkers, promoters, producers, and over all hard working people. True Burlesque/Pinup is showmanship and a lot of hard work. To put people down without knowing the whole story is wrong. Anyone can take off their clothes or pose for a risque picture, but only a few can take that and turn it into a career. There is NO SHAME in that.

People don't see the behind the scenes work because that is boring and the performer is putting on the illusion or magick of the show. No one wants to know how the hotdog is made, they just want to enjoy the taste. Some people don't like hot dogs, but to make others feel shameful because they do like hotdogs or want to like hotdogs is ridiculous.

I think you misunderstand me. It's not at all shameful to be looked on sexually. I meant what Lizzie said; that I think it's sad when women feel that they are defined merely by their sexuality - and that goes as much for when women feel they are defined by their sexual virtue as their attractiveness. I loathe the idea that women are somehow tainted by being sexually promiscuous or explicit. Some women do, however, as you put it, have "issues" and they were the ones I was talking about.

I am a little confused at how you could take my post as some sort of criticism, but it was certainly not intended as such and if you thought I was in anyway trying to SHAME you, then I must have phrased myself very poorly and sincerely apologise. I was, in fact, trying to voice my support.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Is that society or bad parenting?

Frankly, I think it's society. These boys are being taught by the environment around them that the proper way "men" respond to women is to whoop and holler and engage in other testosterone-fueled antics. And girls are being taught that the only way they're going to get attention from "men" is by acting the way those "men" want them to act. Parents have an important part in teaching kids to be respectful of each other and themselves -- but too often the parents themselves are no role models, and that's because they're acting the way society -- the media, pop culture, the whole schmeer -- tells them to act. And in the back office, the Boys From Marketing ring up the cash register and lick their chops.

 

[William Stratford]

If there is a problem with the portrayal of adult men, it is a problem with the portrayal of adult men in general, not one limited to those who choose parenthood. Of course, with parenthood it is more likely to have an ongoing effect on the next generation.

Indeed, the problem is with the portrayal of adult men in general, however the epitome of the adult man is the father and it is chiefly through fatherhood that boys become men. In a society that devalues fatherhood, boys receive the greatest impediment to their becoming men.

 

[LolitaHaze]

Sheer drivel. This claim is up there with the idea that prostitution can be an "empowering" career for women.

I doubt that we are going to find agreement on this.

You, as a man, must be right, when you say that the choices I make as a woman, to work both the business side and the creative side of sexual entertainment and do what it takes to be a better business woman and creative women to not only advance my chosen career as an adult entertainer but better skills that can be used in other aspects of life -- well how could I be adding to the idea of women being more than just an object. I really am shameful.

 

[LolitaHaze]

Frankly, I think it's society. These boys are being taught by the environment around them that the proper way "men" respond to women is to whoop and holler and engage in other testosterone-fueled antics. And girls are being taught that the only way they're going to get attention from "men" is by acting the way those "men" want them to act. Parents have an important part in teaching kids to be respectful of each other and themselves -- but too often the parents themselves are no role models, and that's because they're acting the way society -- the media, pop culture, the whole schmeer -- tells them to act. And in the back office, the Boys From Marketing ring up the cash register and lick their chops.

Honestly, I can't argue this because I am not a parent, but as a non parent I can't understand it being society more than lazy parenting. Sure, people will do what they want in the end, but in the end I think of it like this -- you can raise a catholic child in a Jewish neighborhood. <--- this is just an example and not saying one religion is right or wrong or better than another.

 

[William Stratford]

You, as a man, must be right, when you say that the choices I make as a woman, to work both the business side and the creative side of sexual entertainment and do what it takes to be a better business woman and creative women to not only advance my chosen career as an adult entertainer but better skills that can be used in other aspects of life -- well how could I be adding to the idea of women being more than just an object. I really am shameful.

Are there any more "dont tell me I'm doing wrong" trump cards you'd like to hide behind? If you dont like a man telling you this, go speak with these women instead: http://www.object.org.uk/

 

[LolitaHaze]

I don't hide behind anything -- I am a stripper after all...

And isn't being nothing more than a sexual object doing nothing but listening to the needs and demands of men? Loving them telling me what to do.

 

[AmateisGal]

Yes on the society thing, or maybe it's just a group mentality. I know that I raised my stepson to have morals and respect women, but when he is with his friends, I'm not sure he remembers all those lessons...

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

-I can understand the point about women being defined merely by their sexuality but the rather conservative views about how many sex partners a woman should have ALSO define here by her sexuality. Just the other way round.
-The Boston Globe article about the pupils is great. A critical mind can't start early enough.
-Like Edward said the Burlesque Scene have more female and gay fans than one would think. It's not just about sex. The play with costumes...acting, dancing on stage...playing a role.
-There is a 28 pages thread about the "man stopping power" of weapons with certain calibers. Why is this less dangerous than women showing some skin? Maybe I am just too european to get it .. (we certainly have our own double standards here.)

 

[Flicka]

-I can understand the point about women being defined merely by their sexuality but the rather conservative views about how many sex partners a woman should have ALSO define here by her sexuality.

My point exactly. I made that clear in my last post, didn't I? Ick, now I'm paranoid about being misunderstood.

OK, so who besides me wants that slogan on a t-shirt?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Yes on the society thing, or maybe it's just a group mentality. I know that I raised my stepson to have morals and respect women, but when he is with his friends, I'm not sure he remembers all those lessons...

That's exactly my point. Even the best parent in the world has a tough road in the face of what society throws at kids today, and by the time they hit the teens peer pressure is far more influential than lessons taught at home. I'm sure every one of those kids sucking on the beer hose were taken aside at one time or another by an authority figure and told "don't do this or that." But society tells them to rebel, be your own person, don't listen to The Man -- here, have a beer! Have a whole sixer! Empty the keg! And look at the t & a on that one!

There's a lot of young women today who are fighting back, and I applaud that. But where are the young men who are fighting back? Or don't they feel they have to, because boys will be boys? Again, society.

As far as defining one's self by sex goes, I'm forty-nine years old and have had exactly one partner. But that no more defines my identity than whether or not I like buttercups. It's only a very small part of who I am, and those of you who are thinking "dried up old New England Miss Grundy prude" don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

My point exactly. I made that clear in my last post, didn't I? Ick, now I'm paranoid about being misunderstood.

Perfectly clear. Just wanted to express which side I am on...so to speak.

 

[LolitaHaze]

No worries Flicka... You had me at the Stockholm story. ...

 

[William Stratford]

I'm sure every one of those kids sucking on the beer hose were taken aside at one time or another by an authority figure and told "don't do this or that." But society tells them to rebel, be your own person, don't listen to The Man -- here, have a beer! Have a whole sixer! Empty the keg! And look at the t & a on that one!

Indeed. Society promotes brattish behaviour, "do your own thang", "let it all hang out".

 

[LolitaHaze]

As far as defining one's self by sex goes, I'm forty-nine years old and have had exactly one partner. But that no more defines my identity than whether or not I like buttercups. It's only a very small part of who I am, and those of you who are thinking "dried up old New England Miss Grundy prude" don't know what you're talking about.

As someone who is a bit more out there than you, I find this just as wonderful as if you had 17276478234 partners. What is what I find upsetting about this conversation, is that I don't think myself better or worse than you for your choices, just different. Yet the same courtesy is not being extended to me. I am being contributed to the moral downfall for my choices of lifestyle. Naturally that is a gross dramatization of the conversation, but the underlying point is there. Standards are not better or worse than one another -- just different.