Today's Pinup Fashion a Sly Wink to the Past - New York Times

[AmateisGal]

If these kids were my daughters I'd be the proudest mother on earth.

On a day when the biggest local news story was the arrest of a prominent insurance executive/community pillar in the next town on a charge of *pimping,* it's stories like the above that keep me from running out in front of a truck.

Saw this story a few days ago. Terrific! So glad these girls are standing up.

 

[Undertow]

Boys desperately need real *men* as role models, not these jumped-up jackasses they see on TV, in popular music, and in sports. Until the whole party-hearty frat-boy culture is stomped into the ground, it's just going to keep on teaching those boys to treat girls like two-dollar hookers.

At some point in the 1970's (after the hippie counter culture, and sometime before/during/after the Vietnam war), and with the beginnings of "comedy" routines the likes of Saturday Night Live, it not-so-gradually became uncool to be "old" and "stodgy". I'm not talking about kids wanting to be rebels, or people flying their own flags, or kids learning lessons the hard way - I'm talking about a premeditated, produced and marketed "idea" of "old people are grumps and stupid".

On an aside, as a child, I absolutely loved Mr. Rogers (how couldn't you?). Yet, I distinctly recall kids rolling their eyes and making fun of his show. They preferred Thundercats and Transformers, or He-Man, which incidentally were solely created as marketing engines to push new toys on to kids.

The long and short - it won't change unless it's profitable. Thus, we've seen an increase in marketing campaigns from Old Spice, Dos Equis (James Powers has his avatar set thusly), etc. showing these men oozing with machismo as "cool". I think boys WANT to be men right now, and they're nearly blind in a dark room feeling around for the light switch.

 

[LolitaHaze]

I thought it would be nice to come back to the lounge and try to become an active member again, but seeing how welcoming and non judgy wudgy people are to the pinup/Burlesque gals, perhaps I will keep my non classy self away again -- signed, Lolita Haze, Burlesque Stripper, pinup, and naked lady on the internet.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

I thought it would be nice to come back to the lounge and try to become an active member again, but seeing how welcoming and non judgy wudgy people are to the pinup/Burlesque gals, perhaps I will keep my non classy self away again -- signed, Lolita Haze, Burlesque Stripper, pinup, and naked lady on the internet.

Don't worry. There are many people on the FL who don't have a problem with burlesque. They are just to lazy to write in one of the "holier-than-thou" threads.

 

[Edward]

Don't forget the adult men who foster this mentality. Men have set the foundation these women are building on. All this pin-up/burlesque business was provided for the pleasure of men. The idea that it's become "empowering" to women is an extremely warped concept.

It would be a mistake to suggest that the neo-burlesque movement of the current era is a faithful recreation of how it was back in the day - though that said, you'll struggle to find someone on the scene (at least here in the UK) who would actually think that it was. Leaving aside the debate over what burlesque actually is (and it's only a very, very poor night that doesn't under stand the concept that will be comprised solely of striptease artistes), the average UK burlesque audience is about half female, and a significant proportion of the men will be gay. Of the rest, there is a high likelihood that they are there for reasons other than mere titillation - let's face it, there's everything else and more available cheaper and easier elsewhere these days if that was what they really wanted. It certainly has moved away from how it originated - warped, you could say. It's up to the individual how one judges that, but to suggest that the current movement is exactly the same as it was in the thirties for good or ill, is naive at best.

Here, here! Our culture is flooded with kiddult boys who refuse to grow into men (although to an extent we can hardly blame them considering how society today portrays fathers and fatherhood ).

If there is a problem with the portrayal of adult men, it is a problem with the portrayal of adult men in general, not one limited to those who choose parenthood. Of course, with parenthood it is more likely to have an ongoing effect on the next generation.

I thought it would be nice to come back to the lounge and try to become an active member again, but seeing how welcoming and non judgy wudgy people are to the pinup/Burlesque gals, perhaps I will keep my non classy self away again -- signed, Lolita Haze, Burlesque Stripper, pinup, and naked lady on the internet.

Didn't you know, judgementalism is a vintage virtue? Says so right in the Bible. Oh.... wait....

 

[Amy Jeanne]

No problems with burlesque/pinupery here! I collect men's magazines from the 30s to the 60s and run a "naughty" Tumblr for such images. Also, LO, you are not the only one who is unclassy. My tattoos put me in that category lol

But you already knew this.....lol

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

the average UK burlesque audience is about half female, and a significant proportion of the men will be gay. Of the rest, there is a high likelihood that they are there for reasons other than mere titillation - let's face it, there's everything else and more available cheaper and easier elsewhere these days if that was what they really wanted. It certainly has moved away from how it originated - warped, you could say. It's up to the individual how one judges that, but to suggest that the current movement is exactly the same as it was in the thirties for good or ill, is naive at best.

Same here in germany... and I think in finland too. I once made a stupid joke about burlesque and the finnish ladies did give me the evil look. They defend it more than men ever could. Haha.

 

[Undertow]

I thought it would be nice to come back to the lounge and try to become an active member again, but seeing how welcoming and non judgy wudgy people are to the pinup/Burlesque gals, perhaps I will keep my non classy self away again -- signed, Lolita Haze, Burlesque Stripper, pinup, and naked lady on the internet.

I'm not sure anyone is judging individuals, but there are too many posts to reread.

I think the discussion was (at one point or another) focused on the counter-productive nature of a sub-cultural move to become sex bait for men, willingly. Or in other words, I think there's been more debate over an idea than a person.

It would certainly be interesting to hear a voice from the "other side" of the debate...

 

[Feraud]

It would be a mistake to suggest that the neo-burlesque movement of the current era is a faithful recreation of how it was back in the day - though that said, you'll struggle to find someone on the scene (at least here in the UK) who would actually think that it was. Leaving aside the debate over what burlesque actually is (and it's only a very, very poor night that doesn't under stand the concept that will be comprised solely of striptease artistes), the average UK burlesque audience is about half female, and a significant proportion of the men will be gay. Of the rest, there is a high likelihood that they are there for reasons other than mere titillation - let's face it, there's everything else and more available cheaper and easier elsewhere these days if that was what they really wanted. It certainly has moved away from how it originated - warped, you could say. It's up to the individual how one judges that, but to suggest that the current movement is exactly the same as it was in the thirties for good or ill, is naive at best.

I never suggested the current scene is like the original one. It is because we recognize differences and society's broadening acceptance of and designation as some modern Feminist movement that we've been having this ongoing conversation.

 

[sheeplady]

Lolita, I don't have a problem with you (or your professions) either. If you look back on this thread, you'll see that there are a couple of us who say that we have absolutely no problem with strippers, although we are in a minority. A few of us have said we don't have any problem with sex workers as a broad category in general- I certainly don't.

Those of us who feel that way just kind of shut up after a while, especially after the discussion developed and changed (as is the natural tendency in threads).

 

[LolitaHaze]

Thank you to those who understand where I am coming from. While I understand no one is discussing an individual (with the exception of Dita's name being brought up as an individual) but rather a whole, when the tone of the thread begins to slag off those (in general) who choose to use sexuality to get ahead (or as a way of life) it's a bit of a finger point to the individuals like me who choose to do just that. And to say that Dita is nothing more than just a stripper, as one member put it, is saying that I too am nothing more than a stripper, since that is what I do as well.

I'm not degrading myself because I like to get naked (or semi naked for stage). I'm not doing it for the sole attention of men. I don't do it because I think it is the only way I will get noticed. I do it because I ENJOY doing it. I enjoy entertaining and I am good at it. I find nothing wrong with the body or showing it. And when people on here are trying to say that people, like me, are trashy, unclassy, an object, less than they are, and wrong is quite insulting. I know I am not everyone's cup of tea, but seriously... when a group talks about how classy they are in comparison to others, perhaps your comparisons shouldn't be about being better or worse or right or wrong, but rather just different. It is one thing to not like or care for an aesthetic of a lifestyle, but to hold oneself above another goes against the very thing many preach of acceptance, manners, and judgement.

Mind you I am reacting to a handful of standout postings that are shaming people, like me, who choose the naked way of life and not the discussion itself.

I am sure I will have more to add to the discussion, but I will just leave it at this until my next posting. Hahahaha

 

[John in Covina]

There is room for all kinds in this world as well as all sorts of vocations.

The concept is that we reserve the right to make our own judgments and values however there is nothing that says what I have to like and what I have to dislike.

This is where the phrase agree to disagree comes in for many.

 

[Flicka]

I really wouldn't presume to judge anyone for stripping. I do however think it's sad when women in general are taught that they are no more than the sum of their sexual attractiveness. I think women, as men, should have the right to be a great many things.

I think that's the thing with burlesque that is often misunderstood - I think modern burlesque tries to turn the tables on the male gaze and make it about female expression. However, in an evironment where women are sexualised and objectified, I think many girls miss that fine distinction and it turns into the opposite of what it's trying to be, which is sad.

However, I would never, ever dream of judging anyone for stripping. I think I said that earlier. I do somewhat have a problem with men going to strip clubs because, to me, that feels exploitative. But heck, at 18 I once drunkenly stripped down to my bare skin in front of the royal palace in Stockholm at 2 pm in front of four busloads of Japanese tourists (it was a bet and there had been tequila, but there are likely some very embarrassing pictures of me in Osaka), so I'm sure the word "classy" should not pass over my lips.

And yes, I am aware that some of you will judge me now that I confessed that. Go ahead. Judge my other cheek too while you're at it.

 

[LolitaHaze]

John, I absolutely agree, but to make one feel less than because of it is where I have the issue.

 

[LizzieMaine]

What a grown woman chooses to do is her own business, whether it's Dita or anyone else. My problem is a with a popular culture that doesn't just present sexuality as one aspect of a woman's life -- but as the *definitive* aspect of it. I'll fight that till my last breath, for the sake of many young women that I care a whole lot about. When a smart, talented 18 year old is sobbing in the corner because some pimply-faced jackass in a Camaro drove by and called her "fat a**" that's when I'm ready to go out and kick over society.

 

[Flicka]

What a grown woman chooses to do is her own business, whether it's Dita or anyone else. My problem is a with a popular culture that doesn't just present sexuality as one aspect of a woman's life -- but as the *definitive* aspect of it. I'll fight that till my last breath, for the sake of many young women that I care a whole lot about.

And this was exactly what I tried to say, only much less eloquently.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Oh, and Amy Jeanne -- if anybody gives you grief for not being "classy," I'll show them what "not classy" really is. I've always considered you one of the classiest gals in the PR.

 

[John in Covina]

John, I absolutely agree, but to make one feel less than because of it is where I have the issue.

True - but the problem is one where we all have different "standards."
The question is when is too much - too much?

The culture today is often based on a concept that outrageousness and celebrity are the same and under that guideline youthful indescression (sp) becomes a search for the most outrageous behavior.

Misfortunate people are realizing everyday that with media and internet if they make a "mistake" and go too far, it will be around the globe and a lot like the genie that you can't get back in the bottle.

So some of us always say use caution and have guidelines that will keep you safe because too much misfortune happens to people because of taking something too far.

 

[Undertow]

And yes, I am aware that some of you will judge me now that I confessed that. Go ahead. Judge my other cheek too while you're at it.

Grr, those cheeks of yours! Evil cheeks! Cheeky cheeks!

(Don't worry Flicka, many of us have done things in the presence of a camera that we wouldn't like to discuss in front of our grandparents, much less the Lounge!)

 

[LolitaHaze]

I think that's the thing with burlesque that is often misunderstood - I think modern burlesque tries to turn the tables on the male gaze and make it about female expression. However, in an evironment where women are sexualised and objectified, I think many girls miss that fine distinction and it turns into the opposite of what it's trying to be, which is sad.

What makes you feel this way? Have you ever spent time in the Burlesque community, beyond one or 2 shows? When I say community I mean both the performers and the audience. In my 10 years of performing, I never once felt objectified. Sexualized, yes, because that is part of the point. And at which point I wonder... why is it a sad thing to be looked upon sexually? Keep in mind too, it may be regional. I don't know how the Swedish performers are compared to the States girls -- but even so I can perhaps see your point of view.

Let me say that there is a lot of Bad Burlesque out there. A LOT. Unfortunately this is what many people see. (Same true with Pinup) There are a lot of performers out there who do not understand the true showmanship that goes with both true (classic and neo) Burlesque and Pinup. There are girls out there that are trying to work out their own issues on stage or in photos. However, these girls don't last very long, nor do they climb up the ladder. (Some get through, but not many). I have witnessed this myself and it is uncomfortable to watch. However, at that point it isn't about the act itself (Burlesque or Pinup, or nakedness/porn/sex work)that should be blamed for making girls feel like they need to be a certain way, but the girl themselves. they are making their own choices. It's not the fault of Burlesque or Pinup for making the girls feel they have to be sexual to get anywhere, it is the girl's fault for not understanding or researching all that goes on with what they are trying to accomplish. On top of that you cannot judge any of this for the bad acts that come from it. Burlesque or pinup as a whole are not these girls. The best performers out there, while their title may be pinup or stripper, are actually, business women, seamstresses, designers, models, networkers, promoters, producers, and over all hard working people. True Burlesque/Pinup is showmanship and a lot of hard work. To put people down without knowing the whole story is wrong. Anyone can take off their clothes or pose for a risque picture, but only a few can take that and turn it into a career. There is NO SHAME in that.

People don't see the behind the scenes work because that is boring and the performer is putting on the illusion or magick of the show. No one wants to know how the hotdog is made, they just want to enjoy the taste. Some people don't like hot dogs, but to make others feel shameful because they do like hotdogs or want to like hotdogs is ridiculous.