To shellac or not to shellac...?

[jdouglasj]

Ah yes, mercury and the Danbury shakes problem. That's a more persuasive culprit. There must be a substitute out there waiting to be discovered, but hat making doesn't usually attract our best chemical engineering minds....

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Ah, maybe this is the explanation on modern felt: Americans and Canadians aren't killing as many beavers and Russian beavers aren't as good:

I liked listening to Big Al, and no doubt he knows a lot about retailing hats, but he made several demonstratively false statements.

 

[jlee562]

My understanding is that the blanks were processed for a longer duration, resulting in a tighter felt. I have also seen references to the hoods being stored and aged before blocking. Steve Delk used to speak about getting the blanks to be "dead," in that they would not continue to tighten over time. This is essentially what's happening when a modern felt hat shrinks, the fibers are getting tighter as they would during the felting process. Matt Deckard has also talked about decatization, a heat treatment process which also helped tighten the fibers.

and of course the abandonment of mercury fulminate during the felting process. The use of mercury altered the physical properties of the fur fibers such that they were able to interlock tighter. Think of the mercury as the equivalent of sanding before primer, it roughed up the surfaces of the fibers.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

The issue is that there are relatively few hat buyers and very few of them care about the quality of their hats. Hats are for the most part a fashion item and the market is fine with the felt quality available. It’s not as though Stetson would sell twice as many hats if they made better felt. The market just isn’t there.

Look at Stetson’s recent attempts at giving us open crown pure beaver dress hats: they didn’t discontinue them because they were big sellers. Felt with vintage attributes will remain a small niche market I’m afraid.

 

[belfastboy]

Just off the top: cotton, silk, denim all comes in many types & grades why wouldn't felt be the same? I have felts from, Czech Republic, USA, Portugal, Ukraine, and South America....all are very different; different colour saturation, very different degrees of stiffness, and from that very different hand feel..

With a Portuguese beaver felt from FEPSA a hatter can come very close to a vintage feel for a hat. Pre 1940's they did use mercury in removing the larger/coarser hairs from the pelt and that went a long way in producing a soft felt. That and probably a lot more hand work then than present day.

 

[jdouglasj]

The issue is that there are relatively few hat buyers and very few of them care about the quality of their hats. Hats are for the most part a fashion item and the market is fine with the felt quality available. It’s not as though Stetson would sell twice as many hats if they made better felt. The market just isn’t there.

Look at Stetson’s recent attempts at giving us open crown pure beaver dress hats: they didn’t discontinue them because they were big sellers. Felt with vintage attributes will remain a small niche market I’m afraid.

Your comment about hats being mere fashion items reminds me of an old movie I saw a year or two ago (or maybe it was one of the original Dragnets...). Anyway, in the scene in question these two tough guy cops went to the criminal's apartment to pick them up for questioning. There was a scuffle but after things calmed down the cops said it was time to go downtown. "C'mon" the cops said, "get your hats and let's go." The idea of even two tough-guy criminals stepping out without hats was ludicrous. Or more to the point, the scriptwriters wrote what a couple of tough cops would naturally say when bringing in a couple thugs.

(Come to think of it, I have a box of old 5 x 5 mug shots, all from around 1915. Most of the criminals in the mug shots were wearing hats.)

 

[belfastboy]

My understanding is that the blanks were processed for a longer duration, resulting in a tighter felt. I have also seen references to the hoods being stored and aged before blocking. Steve Delk used to speak about getting the blanks to be "dead," in that they would not continue to tighten over time. This is essentially what's happening when a modern felt hat shrinks, the fibers are getting tighter as they would during the felting process. Matt Deckard has also talked about decatization, a heat treatment process which also helped tighten the fibers.

and of course the abandonment of mercury fulminate during the felting process. The use of mercury altered the physical properties of the fur fibers such that they were able to interlock tighter. Think of the mercury as the equivalent of sanding before primer, it roughed up the surfaces of the fibers.

I picked up a Bailey pure white open crown western on Ebay. I dyed it .....sitting in the hot dye bath (just under the boil) for an hour. It was amazing how much the hat shrunk as the heat reinvigorated the felting process. The hat came out a bit softer but soooo much denser. I call it my bullet proof hat because it is so thick it might possibly deflect a bullet.

 

[jdouglasj]

With a Portuguese beaver felt from FEPSA a hatter can come very close to a vintage feel for a hat. Pre 1940's they did use mercury in removing the larger/coarser hairs from the pelt and that went a long way in producing a soft felt. That and probably a lot more hand work then than present day.

I would like to hear from some more Fedora Lounge experts who have experience with the FEPSA felts--do you notice a significant difference? And which hatters use FEPSA felts?

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I have 50X (50% beaver) and 100X (pure beaver) hats made using FEPSA felt. Optimo of Chicago uses FEPSA, and it’s getting more available. FEPSA doesn’t make it easy for small custom hatters in the US to get their felt. VS offers some FEPSA, as does Gannon on occasion. It’s available in limited colors and sizes through a middleman who is a Lounge member (and custom hatter in his own right).

Hornskov and Hufvud are two European hatters who also use FEPSA, and there are undoubtedly more. I’m a fan of the 50X felt and would like to get another hat using that felt this year. And yes, I’ve noticed a big difference between FEPSA and Winchester felt.

 

[jdouglasj]

I guess I must have a FEPSA hat then because I purchased a fedora from Optimo many years ago. I have three Optimo hats, but two are straw. What I don't have, I guess, is a hat that uses Winchester felt.

My Optimo hat is nice, but i just purchased it off their wall, which is how they do most of their sales. It's not what I would have ended up with if they sold hats the way Watson's does. It is definitely softer than many other fedoras I have looked at. But someone in this thread described old hats as "having a crease and dents that looked like that's just how the hat owner happened to pick the hat up." That's what the old hats I'm attracted to looked like to my eyes as well.

My Optimo is definitely malleable, but I wouldn't say it's as malleable as the old hats appear to be.

 

[belfastboy]

I would like to hear from some more Fedora Lounge experts who have experience with the FEPSA felts--do you notice a significant difference? And which hatters use FEPSA felts?

I concur with DeadlyH. I have Fepsa beaver and rabbit...both make a nice hat. Softer hand, deeper/richer dye penetration. The downside is that hatters that use Fepsa are at the upper price point for a custom hat. It is not that Fepsa is that much more expensive to buy but it is a bit of a rarity and the hatters that use it just happen to charge what their market will bear. If you want a Fepsa felt hat drop me a PM and I will send you to the guy who imports the felts and he can sell you a felt that you can take to your hatter (ask first) or probably he will make it up for you.

 

[jlee562]

Depending on how old your Optimo is, it may not be an all beaver felt. They switched a few years ago from a hare/beaver blend. Their heirloom felt is a true Silverbelly felt.

Optimo almost assuredly has felts made to Graham's specifications and are likely not the exact same felts available to others (Winchester also does special runs if the order size is big enough). The two FEPSA beaver bodies I have do seem slightly thinner than my Optimo.

here's how a finished hat responds to a dry crease:

 

[belfastboy]

I guess I must have a FEPSA hat then because I purchased a fedora from Optimo many years ago. I have three Optimo hats, but two are straw. What I don't have, I guess, is a hat that uses Winchester felt.

My Optimo hat is nice, but i just purchased it off their wall, which is how they do most of their sales. It's not what I would have ended up with if they sold hats the way Watson's does. It is definitely softer than many other fedoras I have looked at. But someone in this thread described old hats as "having a crease and dents that looked like that's just how the hat owner happened to pick the hat up." That's what the old hats I'm attracted to looked like to my eyes as well.

My Optimo is definitely malleable, but I wouldn't say it's as malleable as the old hats appear to be.

Winchester beaver felts make very good hats. As a hatter I have some difficulty with their uneven quality control. But if you work past that the finished product is very good. They do not have a particularly soft hand. The closest to vintage that I have worked with is a Tonak rabbit w/ suede finish. They make a wonderful soft, malleable fedora.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I guess I must have a FEPSA hat then because I purchased a fedora from Optimo many years ago. I have three Optimo hats, but two are straw. What I don't have, I guess, is a hat that uses Winchester felt.

My Optimo hat is nice, but i just purchased it off their wall, which is how they do most of their sales. It's not what I would have ended up with if they sold hats the way Watson's does. It is definitely softer than many other fedoras I have looked at. But someone in this thread described old hats as "having a crease and dents that looked like that's just how the hat owner happened to pick the hat up." That's what the old hats I'm attracted to looked like to my eyes as well.

My Optimo is definitely malleable, but I wouldn't say it's as malleable as the old hats appear to be.

If it’s an older Optimo I’m not sure what felt it is made out of. I know Optimo has changed felt offerings over the years.

I’ve yet to see modern felt that is as good as the best vintage felt. The closest I’ve seen is a Winchester that Gannon made me, the Excellent quality Pure Beaver Stetson used in the Phantom Gray New York LE (oddly the same hat in tobacco wasn’t near as good), and a FEPSA 50X that Hornskov made me. Even further from vintage quality is the current state of western felt. I haven’t been incredibly impressed with the few Optimos that have passed through my hands: nice, but the felt was not commensurate with their cost.

This is 50X FEPSA:
https://fb.watch/2YpR50gSoj/

 

[jdouglasj]

I really enjoyed my time at Watson's. Eric is a great guy, but as DeadlyH says of hatters out west, his felts weren't so soft. The funny thing is I was talking to Baron Hat's about making this hat, and he got back to me and said he is no longer making that hat. Graham (Optimo) wanted to modify one of his hats from the wall, but when none of them were suitable he said he'd have to make it custom for me and that would be "at least $3,000" (which I took to mean, 'I don't want to make a custom hat').

The hat I ordered from Watson's might not be as soft as I'd like, but I am still hopeful that I will like the end product. I'll be sure to post my review here.

 

[mayserwegener]

My understanding is that the blanks were processed for a longer duration, resulting in a tighter felt. I have also seen references to the hoods being stored and aged before blocking. Steve Delk used to speak about getting the blanks to be "dead," in that they would not continue to tighten over time. This is essentially what's happening when a modern felt hat shrinks, the fibers are getting tighter as they would during the felting process. Matt Deckard has also talked about decatization, a heat treatment process which also helped tighten the fibers.

and of course the abandonment of mercury fulminate during the felting process. The use of mercury altered the physical properties of the fur fibers such that they were able to interlock tighter. Think of the mercury as the equivalent of sanding before primer, it roughed up the surfaces of the fibers.

I was told by the last technical director Gustav Menschel of Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik / S. & J. Fraenkel Wien (started as master dyer in the mid 1950s) that nitrate of mercury pickled fur was still available in Europe up to the mid 1960s. Here is a translated excerpt from his unpublished book "Der Hut / The Hat".

"Today only hydrogen peroxide pickling is used, although mercury-pickled hair, stored for half a year (matured), is second to none in quality."

Here is some info regarding pickling / carroting.

"Preparation of a Pickling Fluid": In a cool place where people are not standing, pour into a wide-mouth glass bottle of 12 liters of 8 kg nitric acid of 1.39 spec. And add 1 kg of mercury to it, and let the bottle stand still. The solution will be useful after 6 to 8 weeks. This mixture is intended for the so-called yellow stain; For the White Stain, one has to take more than 1 kg, 130 g of mercury more. For the coating, this concentrated solution must then be diluted with rain or distilled water in such a way that 8 parts of water are used per one part of the same. Since the evaporation of the pickling fluid is disadvantageous to the health, the work of laying the skins should always be carried out only in an airy space. The touch of the same with the bare hand must also be avoided. The skins treated with white stain by hand are then dried at air temperature treated with yellow stain at about 50 ° C. The stained skins are then placed on the side of the hair, pressed firmly together for several days, until cold."

 

[belfastboy]

I was told by the last technical director Gustav Menschel of Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik / S. & J. Fraenkel Wien (started as master dyer in the mid 1950s) that nitrate of mercury pickled fur was still available in Europe up to the mid 1960s. Here is a translated excerpt from his unpublished book "Der Hut / The Hat".

"Today only hydrogen peroxide pickling is used, although mercury-pickled hair, stored for half a year (matured), is second to none in quality."

Here is some info regarding pickling / carroting.

"Preparation of a Pickling Fluid": In a cool place where people are not standing, pour into a wide-mouth glass bottle of 12 liters of 8 kg nitric acid of 1.39 spec. And add 1 kg of mercury to it, and let the bottle stand still. The solution will be useful after 6 to 8 weeks. This mixture is intended for the so-called yellow stain; For the White Stain, one has to take more than 1 kg, 130 g of mercury more. For the coating, this concentrated solution must then be diluted with rain or distilled water in such a way that 8 parts of water are used per one part of the same. Since the evaporation of the pickling fluid is disadvantageous to the health, the work of laying the skins should always be carried out only in an airy space. The touch of the same with the bare hand must also be avoided. The skins treated with white stain by hand are then dried at air temperature treated with yellow stain at about 50 ° C. The stained skins are then placed on the side of the hair, pressed firmly together for several days, until cold."

Esther Weiss had at least one vintage mercury pickled felt and I was sorely tempted but it was a dark navy so I declined but there is still a tinge of regret.

 

[belfastboy]

I have been refurbishing a number of western felt hats for DeadlyHandsome and it has been interesting working with/wrestling with the felts. He sent me an older Stetson and a Smithbilt in a tan. I gave it a good naptha bath and then lots of hot water/steam to reblock. The felt turned out very nice. The 3" brims retained enough stiffness but the crowns came out soft and pliable. In the days to come I want to play with this and see if I can come up with a formula for turning old stiff westerns into pliable vintage fedoras. Alchemy....lead into gold!

 

[mayserwegener]

The following film was made in 1942 by Janyska & Cie. and it shows skin preparation, hand cutting of fur and manual felt making. This is the only public source of the film so very rare. I was told that the film was restored by the Czech Republic National Archives but I have never been able to get a copy.

The Janyska film (in sepia tone) starts at:

5:32

5:57

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1ej3DBl9PEfdmhUNXdBZGpxRE0/view

The mention of Australian Wild Rabbit has nothing to do with the Janyska & Cie film. Italian companies had to import fur (no suitable local sources) so many imported lower grade Australian Wild rabbits. Janyska & Cie was a major Velour maker (close by to J. Hückel´s Söhne , A. Peschel and Brüder Böhm in Czechoslovakia , prior to WWI Austria ) so used locally sourced Wild Hare. By the way the entire Panizza video is worth watching.

 

[mayserwegener]

Esther Weiss had at least one vintage mercury pickled felt and I was sorely tempted but it was a dark navy so I declined but there is still a tinge of regret.

Sorry about that. I have come across old German and Austrian / Czech hoods and capelines. Gustav Menschel said that factories that sourced and processed their own skins had a big advantage. Ebreichsdorfer Filzhutfabrik S. J. Fraenkel Wien had to source processed fur after WWII which was very problematic.

Mercury Nitrate was used for a much longer time in Europe. A while ago I came across an Italian lawsuit from the early 1970s for victims of mercury poisoning. Hat companies had skin preparation and fur cutting moved off site.