Titanic's rivets weak

[MrBern]

the hole:

In 1996, an expedition found, beneath obscuring mud, not a large gash but six narrow slits where bow plates appeared to have parted. Naval experts suspected that rivets had popped along the seams, letting seawater rush in under high pressure.

Studies of the wreck show that six seams opened up in the ship’s bow plates. And the damage, Dr. Foecke noted, “ends close to where the rivets transition from iron to steel.”

the slag:

Many of the (Titanic's) rivets studied by the scientists were found to be riddled with high concentrations of slag. A glassy residue of smelting, slag can make rivets brittle and prone to fracture.

 

[Mojito]

I think we need to be clear that the current ‘new’ theory (actually one that Tim has been working on for years) concerns the rivets – not the steel plating. The “brittle steel” theory referred to in several posts above and which I discussed in my post concerned not the quality of the rivets but rather the quality of the steel used in the hull plates. This new book has comprehensively debunked the “brittle steel” theory while reaching the conclusion that the iron rivet feedstock was not of the highest quality available. You can see some of Tim’s evidence against the “brittle steel” on his site, which I linked to above.

I can’t speak yet from first hand knowledge so am relying on the opinions of researchers in the field who have actually read the book (rather than just the article) and comments Tim himself has made. I understand that the study concludes that three different types of rivets were used in construction, resulting in different seam strengths along the hull. The strongest were in the middle, where steel rivets were used, and the weakest at the ends where wrought iron was employed. The substandard rivets could not be detected unless they were loose after they cooled.

The impact with the berg loaded the seams with the highest tension where the rivets were weakest. Tim also concludes that some of the rivets would have failed no matter what their quality, due to the nature of the collision. He does not argue that the Titanic could have been saved had higher average quality wrought iron feedstock been used – what he does suggest is that it is possible that not as many seams might have opened up, resulting in a lower flooding rate that may have allowed the ship to remain afloat for longer.

As one respected marine forensics analyst has pointed out, Tim does not say that the ship was “doomed” because of the rivets or low quality workmanship – this is the interpretation that the journalists have used to give the story a more sensational twist.

Suggestions of deliberate corner cutting to keep expenses down are also part of the interpretation of others. Tim points out that resources were stretched because work on the three sisterships was taking place at the same time. The ships were completed on a cost-plus basis by Harland and Wolff, so there was no benefit to them in deliberately using inferior material.

Regarding Murdoch’s handling of the Titanic during the collision, it’s worth noting that (again) there is a good deal of controversy regarding what precisely took place – what his orders were, and what actions took place. Of the men on the bridge at the time, there was only one survivor – QM Hichens, whose testimony is sometimes suspect. Murdoch himself perished, as did the Sixth Officer. The Fourth Officer and other QM on watch were just returning to the bridge as the collision occurred, the former only catching the explanation Murdoch was giving to Smith. Of the engine room, not a single engineering officer survived the accident, so we have to rely on one or two witnesses from that area of the ship.

The conventional explanation has it that Murdoch tried to port around the berg. This means that he ordered the helm hard-a-starboard (confusingly, at the time this meant the ship turned to port) followed by a hard-a-port, swinging the stern out. This was not ‘fishtailing’ – it meant that first the bow, then the stern, were swung away from the obstacle. He nearly pulled it off – regrettably, he didn’t quite succeed. The engines-full-astern is another controversial aspect to the helm orders – it is doubtful whether, if ordered (and some argue strongly for “stop” or “slow astern”), it was executed in time to take any effect, or even if the order was given prior to or immediately after the collision.

Murdoch was a superlative officer – I’ve obtained copies of his record in the Board of Trade examinations for his Second Mates to Extra-master’s tickets, and compared them to many other White Star and Cunard officers (including his Titanic colleagues) – of them all, he is the only one who passed all his examinations at the first attempt. Whereas other candidates routinely went to a navigational cram school prior to each examination, Murdoch only briefly attended one immediately prior to taking his Master’s. At the Titanic inquiries, crewmembers went out of their way to put on record their personal high regard for him. It is recorded that on a previous occasion on another WS Liner he narrowly averted a collision with a sailing ship at night by overriding the orders of a senior officer who had misunderstood the situation and had given commands that would have resulted in collision. Murdoch, perceiving the true position immediately, personally took the wheel during the incident and averted disaster. The junior officer who witnessed the event and who later taught navigation in Australia remained adamant for the rest of his life that he was certain Murdoch had let no one down that night. As he put it:

There was never a better officer. Cool, capable, on his toes always - and smart toes they were.

The Titanic was at that time the worst maritime disaster to date – although the 1,517 lost, as I note above, is inaccurate and something of a bete noir for those researchers who specialise in passenger and crew lists (it was 1,496 who perished). The Dona Paz, a Philippine ferry, has the dubious distinction of highest casualty figures for a merchant ship lost in peacetime - 4,341 dead (although as is so often with these disaster, the figures are disputed). The list Dhermann1 links to is grim but important reading – the loss of so many . In some ways, although casualty figures were less, the losses of the Lusitania and Empress of Ireland were grimmer. In the Titanic there was at least a hope of selectively loading and saving children (and women, if you’re of the women-and-children-first) mindset). Although there were still causalities among the women and children on Titanic – all the large families travelling in third class, for example, were lost – they had a far greater chance of surviving than able bodied men did. In the Lusitania and Empress of Ireland there was little such hope – there was very little chance to save the more helpless individuals, as they went down so terribly fast. Each claimed over a thousand lives. Even the Lusitania pales beside some of the WWII causalities, which included not only the active service personnel and POWs but also civilian refugees.

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

Deep respect, Mojito; superb.
I'm ops mgr at an Antwerp based conventional cargo shipping operator - working with Australian Wheat Board right now. The history of ships - always fascinating.
I understand Lusitania went down in about 20 minutes, apparently the primary torpedo explosion triggered a coal dust "chain reaction" explosion, her enormous bunker (coal storage) compartments were almost empty (end of voyage), and coal dust explodes so much easier than solid coal would. Of course she also carried munitions.
Cheers
Paul

 

[Twitch]

They analyzed the steel microscopically and found impurities in it. There is no doubt of that. Compared to modern steel the plate from the Titanic obviously full of impurities. That doesn't discount the rivets but doesn't bolster their strength either.

 

[Mojito]

They analyzed the steel microscopically and found impurities in it. There is no doubt of that. Compared to modern steel the plate from the Titanic obviously full of impurities. That doesn't discount the rivets but doesn't bolster their strength either.

Hallo Twitch -

If you read my first post, you'll see that I comment on the fact that yes, the steel was not the same quality as modern steel - but nor was it substandard for its day. Effectively, it was the best available. It served vessels like the Titanic's sistership Olympic well - not only did the Olympic serve a long and successful career under the adverse conditions of the North Atlantic (from 1912 - 1935, scrapped for economic rather than structural reasons), it rammed and sank a U-boat in WWI. It also, unfortunately, collided with and sank a lightship. Doesn't sound like a substandard ship to me.

Tim Foecke, the author whose work we are currently discussing (author of the new book), has spent many years examining the "brittle steel" theory. Dr Foecke is metallurgist, whose area of expertise is failure analysis and fracture of metals. He has analysed samples and spent years as a consultant on expeditions to the wreck. One of the specific objects of this new book was to critically examine the "brittle steel" idea that the Titanic's steel shattered or ripped due to poor quality steel cooled in the freezing North Atlantic to the point that it was "brittle", and that this contributed significantly to the sinking. He categorically rejects this idea, and provides substantial data to support his findings - an entire section of the book is devoted to it (there's a lot more to this work than simply the rivet theory - it examines a few ideas about the way in which the ship sank and theories on metal failure aboard, like the idea that the coal fire weakened a bulkhead that later gave way during the sinking and the precise dynamics of the breakup).

Deep respect, Mojito; superb.
I'm ops mgr at an Antwerp based conventional cargo shipping operator - working with Australian Wheat Board right now. The history of ships - always fascinating.
I understand Lusitania went down in about 20 minutes, apparently the primary torpedo explosion triggered a coal dust "chain reaction" explosion, her enormous bunker (coal storage) compartments were almost empty (end of voyage), and coal dust explodes so much easier than solid coal would. Of course she also carried munitions.

Thanks, Paul! Great job you have - we've probably had a lot to do with your company. I work at a major maritime museum, and in addition to collecting and interpreting historical material we also explore Australia's current commercial, naval and recreational maritime connections, including the big commercial lines that operate down here.

The Lusitania is not my area of expertise, but I've dabbled a bit in it assisting a colleague who has done a lot of work on the subject (including several books and participating in several books on the sinking). He was on the expedition that initially proposed the coal dust explosion theory - apparently a lot of the scientists on board advised the expedition leader that it wasn't viable, and that conditions on board were not such that coal dust would ignite, nor would it cause the damage they were seeing. The expedition leader, however, needed a conclusion to satisfy the documentary team on board - there had to be some resolution, so he pushed the coal dust idea. The people on board hired as consultants were rather frustated, as their names were connected with the project.

 

[Dragon Soldier]

Can I just say (again), that it was fine when it left here?

 

[Tomasso]

Jennifer Hooper McCarty, coauthor of the book, was a guest on The Colbert Report this evening. Very funny stuff.

 

[MikeBravo]

Ship Ahoy??

I have heard that the main reason that there were so many lives lost is because there were insufficient lifeboats to hold all the passengers.


And yet, the number of lifeboats met government safety standards. The thinking being that they would take the first class passengers first, and as the ship would be in the main shipping lanes, another ship would be along soon enough to pick up these passengers and send the boats back to pick up the rest.

Of course as they were trying to beat the record, they took the most direct route in order to save time, which was further north where there were more icebergs ...

 

[Warden]

On a related note, this was in the press today

Found at last, the violin played by the Titanic bandmaster as the ship went down

http://www.mirror.co.uk/2011/03/27/found-at-last-the-violin-played-by-the-titanic-bandmaster-as-the-ship-went-down-115875-23018075/

 

[rue]

On a related note, this was in the press today

Found at last, the violin played by the Titanic bandmaster as the ship went down

http://www.mirror.co.uk/2011/03/27/found-at-last-the-violin-played-by-the-titanic-bandmaster-as-the-ship-went-down-115875-23018075/

It sounds to me like it really was his violin. Amazing after all these years that it's been found. Poor Maria