Time for another "what book are you reading?" thread...

[jamespowers]

But only by encountering such things can we argue about them. I choose to read some of the most outlandish, disgusting, morally repugnant drivel. Why? Because i'm not scared of it. By reading it, i can better form arguments against it (only by reading what a fascist or racist has to say can one argue effectively against him/her. "It's just wrong" is not an argument. To know why it's wrong one must have read what was written). If i ignore it (for any reason), i can't say anything about it. Who knows, a person who's a child molester may have important things to say. The fact that he/she is a child molester has no bearing upon whether he or she can write well. Personaly, i'd be interested to read a book by a child molester who said clearly, consisely, and in a literate manner, why they would do such things. Reading about it does not pollute me, or make it more likely that i would do such things.
We're going in circles so i'll leave it there.

bk

We might be going in circles and we can agree to disagree on this. A few closing comments on this though.
I don't have to read a book or see a painting by a child molester to know it is wrong. All I care about is preventing further molestation and punishing the guilty. Beyond that I could care less what they have to say because they are just excuse making from that point and would likely use their literature to that end. Just check out NAMBLA's website and you can read all you want if you can stand it.
It is not a matter of being scared of it is a matter of keeping such things from proliferating. Let's see, do I have to read about child molesting to know it is wrong? I don't think so. Do I have to go on a KKK cross burning to know it is wrong? NO! Getting into their heads and seeing why they think this way and what we can do for their mental illness is not up to me. It is up to the Psychiatric community to study them. The only important thing they have to say to me is when they drag them into court to face justice for their crimes. A plea of "guilty" would work for me. Then I would be interested in the sentence as long as possible to protect the innocent. Psychiatrists and psychologists can study them further in their cells.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

A little clarification. Are we saying that a morally repugnant person cannot be a good writer?

My idea was that a child molester, say, may have interesting things to say about folk tales and their reappearance in very similar forms in different (ostensibly separate) cultures. It seems that some of us are trying to say that a child molester cannot say anything interesting (his/her failing precludes any form of greatness in any field of being). This, to me, is a silly thing to say.

bk

 

[mysterygal]

ok, well, lets try this route... I'm sure a person like that probably could write a cute little fairy tale,but, when you buy/read a book of theirs, you are supporting that person, that I do not intend to do.There are so many great books out there and so many great authors too for that matter...it may sound snobbish but, what you read and watch stays with you wether you want it to or not, I would much rather those influences come through remarkable people of history and of today than those who made others suffer by their actions

 

[mysterygal]

and I'll also add, like I said earlier, their beliefs will seap into their work sooner or later as well

 

[Feraud]

ok, well, lets try this route... I'm sure a person like that probably could write a cute little fairy tale,but, when you buy/read a book of theirs, you are supporting that person, that I do not intend to do.There are so many great books out there and so many great authors too for that matter...it may sound snobbish but, what you read and watch stays with you wether you want it to or not, I would much rather those influences come through remarkable people of history and of today than those who made others suffer by their actions

The trick is to allow a deviant person enough artistic rope to hang themself (by exposing their modes of operation ) but not give them pecuniary benefits. I totally agree with that.

 

[jake_fink]

"There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written; that is all."

Oscar Wilde

 

[jake_fink]

Birth of a Nation is about the KKK saving America from a government run by *gasp* black people. It's racist through and through, and yet it represents more than its content or the views of its makers. It is a keystone in cinematic expression. The same could be argued, more or less, for Triumph of the Will. A piece of Nazi propaganda, but if you can seperate that from the pure cinema that is represents, it is an awesome work of film making. How do we balance the acheivment that is in the work against the content of that work or what we know about the author?

I said I'd had my last word, and now this really is it. I don't know the answers to these very broad questions, and I don't think there are any. But it is fun discussing them... until someone loses an eye.

 

[mysterygal]

interesting, so a book that has say, something in it that involves someone molesting a child, raping a woman, ect, would not be called immoral...just labeled as a 'bad book'? we as people have gotten WAY too desensitized

 

[Miss Neecerie]

Books are not meant to be comfy cozy everyone agrees with me reading. That would be what magazines and one's own diary do.

Books are meant to challenge the mind, open doors to other people's mindsets and universes. Exploring perhaps uncomfortable topics, starts to give one the ability to perhaps understand fellow humans better, to put on an understanding of people unlike one's self. If written well that is.

They cannot do that if they are always things you agree with to start out with.

 

[jamespowers]

A little clarification. Are we saying that a morally repugnant person cannot be a good writer?

My idea was that a child molester, say, may have interesting things to say about folk tales and their reappearance in very similar forms in different (ostensibly separate) cultures. It seems that some of us are trying to say that a child molester cannot say anything interesting (his/her failing precludes any form of greatness in any field of being). This, to me, is a silly thing to say.

bk

The morally repugnant are usually writers so we would eliminate just about every one as a good writer if that was the case. So no.
Yes, yes. I am sure you enjoy Carroll Lewis but my children will never have Alice in Wonderland read to them. He has nothing interesting to say and his pedophilia seeps into his children’s books. If you can't find it you just aren't reading close enough.
Yes, their crimes do indeed keep them from any form of greatness and I will not support them in any way if they are alive or their descendents if they are dead. You can support them all you like but not me. It is not a silly thing to say that I will not support that which is criminal.
Perhaps I should also remind people that California laws prevent criminals from making money through writing books about their exploits. Good idea as far as I am concerned.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

interesting, so a book that has say, something in it that involves someone molesting a child, raping a woman, ect, would not be called immoral...just labeled as a 'bad book'? we as people have gotten WAY too desensitized

It wouldn't necessarily be a bad book. It might be a darn fine book. Depends how it's written.

That in no way lessens the immorality of rape or incest or molestation.

The subject matter is not what is on trial. The way in which the writer writes about it is (good, bad, or indifferent). We also have to understand that one can write about a terrible subject without believing it to be the correct way of doing things. Noone would write if they were to be saddled with the crimes of their characters.

bk

and with that i join Jake in the Final Word Saloon. Until next time :cheers1:

 

[jamespowers]

Noone would write if they were to be saddled with the crimes of their characters.

I don't know who Noone is but we are all saddled with the crimes of our character whether we write or not. Character matters.

Regards to all,

J

 

[mysterygal]

ok, so if we're going into the subject matter of the book, then I feel it is a thin line to cross , to glamourize the criminal behaviour, or I think it is dangerous to be indifferent to it as well, and people are obviously going to have different views on this. Personally, I really don't care to read books with such stuff in it...It could be having kids myself, that whenever I read or watch anything involving molestors, I get pretty livid, or say rapists, it literally makes me sick to my stomach. So, with that said, with a book, I'm investing a week or two into it, that's a lot of time and I am VERY picky how I spend it

 

[Marc Chevalier]

There are indeed people who I don't want inside my head. Fascists, murders, child molesters and sadists are among them. :eusa_doh:

And I like to "know my enemy". Why else would I read Mein Kampf ... or Rush Limbaugh's books, for that matter?

 

[jamespowers]

And I like to "know my enemy". Why else would I read Mein Kampf ... or Rush Limbaugh's books, for that matter?

Hitler and Rush are morally equivalent to you?
I suppose Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Mao and Pol Pot are morally equivalent to me but I don't think I would put a political commentator in the same class as a tyranical maniac leading a nation.:eusa_doh:

Regards,

J

 

[jamespowers]

Personally, I really don't care to read books with such stuff in it...It could be having kids myself, that whenever I read or watch anything involving molestors, I get pretty livid, or say rapists, it literally makes me sick to my stomach. So, with that said, with a book, I'm investing a week or two into it, that's a lot of time and I am VERY picky how I spend it

That about sums it up for me too. :cheers1:

Regards,

J

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I don't think I would put a political commentator in the same class as a tyranical maniac leading a nation.:eusa_doh:

In the same class (that of "my enemies"), yes. To the same degree, no.

 

[mysterygal]

That about sums it up for me too. :cheers1:

Regards,

J

I'm glad someone in here is like-minded !

 

[jamespowers]

In the same class (that of "my enemies"), yes. To the same degree, no.

Okaaaaaayyy. :whistling I am beginning to worry about you Marc.
Enemies lists are not worth accumulating. I have just resolved to outlive my enemies and make some new ones.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I don't know who Noone is but we are all saddled with the crimes of our character whether we write or not. Character matters.

Regards to all,

J

See, this is the problem with saying you've had your final word. There's always something to clarify. Thusly:

The author should not be saddled with crimes committed by characters in a book written by the author.

The author generally does not appear as a character in a book and thus the characters cannot be seen as resembling the author.

bk