Thoughts about Japanese brands

[Blackadder]

Wow that Dapper's Johnson looks really nice, love the back design especially! How do these brands license the original brand label, like how Real McCoy's does with Buco, very interesting. Would love to have a look at these in person, do these go through trunk shows only, have to try find a stockist to add to my itinerary!

You lose the trademark if you don't use it. These original companies/brands have long since gone out of business. I doubt RM has to pay anything for it. RM may very well has priority on the Buco TM now in Japan and in countries where their products are being sold.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Wow that Dapper's Johnson looks really nice, love the back design especially! How do these brands license the original brand label, like how Real McCoy's does with Buco, very interesting. Would love to have a look at these in person, do these go through trunk shows only, have to try find a stockist to add to my itinerary!

That Johnson Bros repro is cool. It's corded instead an actual pleat which is interesting.

I think the labels in the vintage jacket is so niche its less about trademark infringement and more like fan art. There is a big set up charge to run the minimum run of the repro labels but the actual number of repro jacket produced are so little that is not worth going through the court actions to collect the royalties if any.

I like the repro labels a lot. It's like the icing on the cake.

 

[Blackadder]

That Johnson Bros repro is cool. It's corded instead an actual pleat which is interesting.

I think the labels in the vintage jacket is so niche its less about trademark infringement and more like fan art. There is a big set up charge to run the minimum run of the repro labels but the actual number of repro jacket produced are so little that is not worth going through the court actions to collect the royalties if any.

I like the repro labels a lot. It's like the icing on the cake.

Copyright owners of e.g. songs and literature usually use royalties collecting agencies because they must by law in most countries allow others to use/reproduce for a fair royalty. However TM holders do not collect royalties for piece meal use of trademark because they would not allow others to use trademark that way period. Licensed use of trademark is not by quantity. It is normally for a period and involve a huge sum and they are not required by law to license their TM.
GW use of Acme labels on its Aero repro is to avoid infringing the Aero Scotland TM. Copyright does not involve registration while TM does. It is likely that RM find it too troublesome to register the TM outside Japan since the international sale is as you said not worth the trouble.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Copyright owners of e.g. songs and literature usually use royalties collecting agencies because they must by law in most countries allow others to use/reproduce for a fair royalty. However TM holders do not collect royalties for piece meal use of trademark because they would not allow others to use trademark that way period. Licensed use of trademark is not by quantity. It is normally for a period and involve a huge sum and they are not required by law to license their TM.
GW use of Acme labels on its Aero repro is to avoid infringing the Aero Scotland TM. Copyright does not involve registration while TM does. It is likely that RM find it too troublesome to register the TM outside Japan since the international sale is as you said not worth the trouble.

Good info. I wish I had a one hit wonder to collect royalties!
Labels really make the jacket special. I’m hunting bargain rags to get the label, and putting them on my repro jackets.

 

[jchance]

I like how there are many different Japanese brands to choose from. The diversity of Japanese brands really helps me to nail down a fit with the bizarre fitting of Japanese men’s frame (although I’m myself an American of Asian descent). At the top, Japanese brands seem consistent in quality even if one were to switch from one brand to another. Except for minor nitpickings, the quality is 95% there.

Take denim, for example, I live near Self Edge so I get to go and try out different Japanese brands in store. I found that only Studio D’Artisan slim taper fit looks flattering on me. I had to pass on the rest of the brands, but I’m grateful for the availability of the wide selection of Japanese brands I get to choose from.

The same is true for leather jackets. When browsing JP sites for jacket styles that I like, one or more measurement always seem (e.g. freewheelers sunset’ sleeve length being too long, RMC Dillinger’s p2p appearing too wide and boxy). I had to pass on those even though they look so damn nice (well, I can get FW sunset’s sleeves tailored to be shortened, but who’d go through all that trouble…) I finally ‘settled’ on a Warehouse Cossack in unlined deerskin, which fits, checks all the boxes and still looks good to my semi-untrained eyes.

 

[jchance]

How is the quality of the Few leather jackets (former RMC, made in New Zealand) compared to the current Freewheelers and RMC leather jackets?

 

[Aloysius]

How is the quality of the Few leather jackets (former RMC, made in New Zealand) compared to the current Freewheelers and RMC leather jackets?

I would say they’re less “fancy” perhaps than the current RMC but I think they’re better in every other respect, chiefly patterning.

That said I would urge you even as an Asian-American (speaking as one myself) to not assume that the Japanese brands patterns are inherently better for an Asian (or any) frame. The unusual shapes of many of those brands is usually based on the fashions pushed by Lightning Magazine and other areas of the Japanese fashion scene and fail at what one would usually classify as a good fit from a tailoring perspective.

As someone who also enjoys SDA’s pattern work, I think Japanese leather is an extremely different situation from their denim and other textile garments, which are generally quite well patterned. (There’s also a thriving tailoring scene in Japan, often more accessible than the tailors who they trained under in the UK or Italy, due to the much lower costs of rent and such in Japan.)

 

[red devil]

I would say they’re less “fancy” perhaps than the current RMC but I think they’re better in every other respect, chiefly patterning.

That said I would urge you even as an Asian-American (speaking as one myself) to not assume that the Japanese brands patterns are inherently better for an Asian (or any) frame. The unusual shapes of many of those brands is usually based on the fashions pushed by Lightning Magazine and other areas of the Japanese fashion scene and fail at what one would usually classify as a good fit from a tailoring perspective.

As someone who also enjoys SDA’s pattern work, I think Japanese leather is an extremely different situation from their denim and other textile garments, which are generally quite well patterned. (There’s also a thriving tailoring scene in Japan, often more accessible than the tailors who they trained under in the UK or Italy, due to the much lower costs of rent and such in Japan.)

Tailoring such as formal suits as well?

 

[Aloysius]

Tailoring such as formal suits as well?

Yes, that's what I was referring to. And since you speak Japanese and go there often, you'll have access to a wider selection. (Some of these tailors have English-speaking assistants or speak English themselves, but many don't. And while some make trips to Hong Kong and other places in Asia for non-local customers, tours of the West like Row tailors do don't seem to be common.)

You have access to a wide range of styles, too. Chujo Takashi (Coccinella) trained in Florence, many are trained the the Neapolitan tradition, others like Kubota Hiroshi trained at Gieves & Hawkes on the Row.

There's a Japanese-language wiki of tailors that also includes their lineage of training/style.

 

[Canuck Panda]

How is the quality of the Few leather jackets (former RMC, made in New Zealand) compared to the current Freewheelers and RMC leather jackets?

I have jackets from RMC NZ and RMC Japan. They are different. The biggest difference is the leather. RMC NZ used a lot of non-horsehide leather, like buffalo and goatskin and steerhide, I have the two former, and they're good. The only problem is that resellers are asking too much money for the NZ jackets. I paid about ¥100,000 ish for my NZ jackets, and only found out later that they were about the same price back in the 90s (from the catalogues). I expect to pay half of original listing price but ended up paying full, 25 some years later...

However, looking at the old catalogues, RMC NZ has a lot more designs/patterns that aren't available from RMC JP. Those ones I would still pay for because to get a brand new repro done in the US today would cost double or triple so there is some value, if the right size shows up.

 

[Marc mndt]

I paid about ¥100,000 ish for my NZ jackets, and only found out later that they were about the same price back in the 90s (from the catalogues). I expect to pay half of original listing price but ended up paying full, 25 some years later...

Correcting for inflation it's far less than half, right?

 

[red devil]

Yes, that's what I was referring to. And since you speak Japanese and go there often, you'll have access to a wider selection. (Some of these tailors have English-speaking assistants or speak English themselves, but many don't. And while some make trips to Hong Kong and other places in Asia for non-local customers, tours of the West like Row tailors do don't seem to be common.)

You have access to a wide range of styles, too. Chujo Takashi (Coccinella) trained in Florence, many are trained the the Neapolitan tradition, others like Kubota Hiroshi trained at Gieves & Hawkes on the Row.

There's a Japanese-language wiki of tailors that also includes their lineage of training/style.

Thanks for the info, I have been out of that world for quite a while, but I need to get at least a new suit or two, as I am finding myself in need of them more often again.

Thanks for the link, checking it out!

 

[Davidchee5]

They started this repro/workwear trend back in the 90’s so they do have lots of brands. In the west it’s a much more recent thing and still very niche from what I can gather. In fact I would say it’s a web driven phenomenon.

The quality from the Japanese brands I’ve handled is generally pretty good.

To me it boils down to them having a time advantage in this niche plus the tendency to obsess about every little detail when reproducing stuff which is not part of western culture typically. They do also have old machinery that allows to replicate period correct fabrics which are not found anywhere else.

Honestly if this stuff would be produced in Europe for me it would be much better as buying from Japan means import charges and returns aren’t accepted generally. I don’t care for the made in Japan in itself but it just so happens that much clothing I like lately is made there. There are also many good workwear brands in Europe and the us of course but i think it’s hard not liking Japanese stuff around here.






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To be fair there were repro brands in the US way before the 90s, cockpit USA formerly Averix is one

 

[Aloysius]

To be fair there were repro brands in the US way before the 90s, cockpit USA formerly Averix is one

They didn't start it at all, but that post is from 6 years ago in fairness when a lot of things seemed somewhat shrouded in mystery.

The repro leather stuff in Japan was set off by what Aero (then Transatlantic Clothing) was doing in the 80s; something like 90% of their sales were direct to Japan, and the Japanese buyers were interviewed on TV talking about how there's no one else (at the time, so certainly not in Japan) making this stuff.

Japanese denim repros started a bit earlier, initially not so much as a repro type of enterprise but more to supply the market with an alternative to used American jeans which were in inconsistent supply. (Indeed this is probably why Studio D'Artisan, one of the Osaka 5, stocks Aero to this day; each was an early entrant to the space.)

P.S. The myth peddled in this thread and on denim enthusiast websites that "Japan bought the old original American looms with all their mistakes" is actually complete bunk.

 

[Davidchee5]

They didn't start it at all, but that post is from 6 years ago in fairness when a lot of things seemed somewhat shrouded in mystery.

The repro leather stuff in Japan was set off by what Aero (then Transatlantic Clothing) was doing in the 80s; something like 90% of their sales were direct to Japan, and the Japanese buyers were interviewed on TV talking about how there's no one else (at the time, so certainly not in Japan) making this stuff.

Japanese denim repros started a bit earlier, initially not so much as a repro type of enterprise but more to supply the market with an alternative to used American jeans which were in inconsistent supply. (Indeed this is probably why Studio D'Artisan, one of the Osaka 5, stocks Aero to this day; each was an early entrant to the space.)

P.S. The myth peddled in this thread and on denim enthusiast websites that "Japan bought the old original American looms with all their mistakes" is actually complete bunk.

I didnt really that post was 6 years old haha, but interesting, thanks for sharing!