Thompson M1A1

[eightbore]

To answer a previous query, anything less than 16" on a Thompson rifle is an NFA weapon requiring a $200 transfer tax and a bunch of federal paperwork. It has nothing to do with it being classified an "assault weapon" the way we think of the term in a post 1994 federal sense. While there are rare and expensive "antique exceptions", any modern rifle manufactured with less than a 16" bbl and any shoulder fired shotgun made with less than an 18" bbl is in the same class as full auto weaponry and suppressors (silencers) under the NFA. Smooth bore pistols, cane guns, some wallet pistols or other "disguised weapons" and short bbl (less than 18") PISTOL shotguns (no stock can be installed...ever) are classified as "any other weapon" by the BATFE and require only a $5 transfer tax but the same mountain of paperwork.

For those trying to think of a way to get around the paperwork, the only way with a Thompson is to buy a rather rare 1927 A5 like the one pictured below. These were made by Auto Ordnance years ago and specifically as a pistol so one can theoretically put ANY length bbl on it. It transfers like any other pistol whether it has a 14", 12" or 10" tube. The one hitch is you can NEVER EVER EVER install a shoulder stock which would instantly make it an illegal NFA weapon (unless one wanted to pay the $200 and do the paperwork to make it classed as a short bbl rifle). This one is for sale on gunbroker.com as we speak with a starting price of $2800. Wouldnt it be nice if they started making these again just for the "NEATO" factor?

One interesting bit about this above piece specifically is that I think it is illegal for another reason completely separate from bbl length. I emailed this seller about it months ago receiving no reply and someone might correct me...but isn't it also a big Class III (NFA) NO NO to have a vertical fore-grip on a handgun? These 1927 A5s originally shipped with M1 fore-ends if I recall correctly.

Best,

eightbore

 

[eightbore]

this was actually received in trade for a old ruger mini 14 that i have had for years

Sounds like you STOLE that Thompson. I've never been much of a mini-14 fan. Wanna unload some of that .308? I'm in the market and feel free to PM me.

best,

eightbore

 

[Diamondback]

Here's the catch on the A5: Anything less than a 13" barrel when paired with a vertical foregrip makes it an "AOW" NFA-toy--"Any Other Weapon not otherwise categorized in Title I or II NFA"; it only carries a $5 transfer and registration tax rather than full-auto or short-barrel's $200, but there's still the paperwork...

 

[eightbore]

So, you're saying that with the existing 14" bbl, the vertical grip is OK....if cut shorter, one would need to install the M1 horizontal fore-grip to avoid paperwork. Weird! I've never seen that bbl length exception to the AOW rule on handgun fore-grips. [huh] There is also the issue of who makes the thing an AOW as I understand it. If it's you, then you pay the $200 to ATF and then it transfers for $5 every time after that....if its a licensed manufacturer who cuts the bbl and installs the grip (in this case), one only pays the $5. God help the man who tries to keep up with ATF rules when it comes to class III firearms.

The interesting thing about this ATF rule in general is that they haven't had much luck enforcing it. They have opined in many "official" documents that this is how they perceive and enforce the AOW law pertaining to handguns with vertical fore-grips, but apparently the only case to serve as precedent thus far was thrown out by the South Carolina judge (at least that specific charge was). Granted, no one wants to be another "test case" but you really have to resent ATF for continuing to hassle people over a largely cosmetic law that has also been pretty much nullified in court. [huh]

Best,

eightbore

 

[Diamondback]

For all you fellow Thompsonistas, there's a TSMG board over at MachineGunBooks.com . Bear in mind, though, some of them are a little snobbish about even AO-West Hurley full-autos, let alone the current AO-Kahr semi's... (sometimes with good reason, late-Westy and early-Kahr QC weren't always the best.)

I think it's something about a 26" or longer OAL.

 

[Jovan]

To answer a previous query, anything less than 16" on a Thompson rifle is an NFA weapon requiring a $200 transfer tax and a bunch of federal paperwork. It has nothing to do with it being classified an "assault weapon" the way we think of the term in a post 1994 federal sense. While there are rare and expensive "antique exceptions", any modern rifle manufactured with less than a 16" bbl and any shoulder fired shotgun made with less than an 18" bbl is in the same class as full auto weaponry and suppressors (silencers) under the NFA. Smooth bore pistols, cane guns, some wallet pistols or other "disguised weapons" and short bbl (less than 18") PISTOL shotguns (no stock can be installed...ever) are classified as "any other weapon" by the BATFE and require only a $5 transfer tax but the same mountain of paperwork.

For those trying to think of a way to get around the paperwork, the only way with a Thompson is to buy a rather rare 1927 A5 like the one pictured below. These were made by Auto Ordnance years ago and specifically as a pistol so one can theoretically put ANY length bbl on it. It transfers like any other pistol whether it has a 14", 12" or 10" tube. The one hitch is you can NEVER EVER EVER install a shoulder stock which would instantly make it an illegal NFA weapon (unless one wanted to pay the $200 and do the paperwork to make it classed as a short bbl rifle). This one is for sale on gunbroker.com as we speak with a starting price of $2800. Wouldnt it be nice if they started making these again just for the "NEATO" factor?

One interesting bit about this above piece specifically is that I think it is illegal for another reason completely separate from bbl length. I emailed this seller about it months ago receiving no reply and someone might correct me...but isn't it also a big Class III (NFA) NO NO to have a vertical fore-grip on a handgun? These 1927 A5s originally shipped with M1 fore-ends if I recall correctly.

Best,

eightbore

I'd rather have the option to have a stock. :-/ What was the barrel length on the originals? Meaning both the M1s and M1928s. I think the horizontal foregrip came along with the M1928A1 "Navy".

 

[Diamondback]

10.5" on '21A. The comp on the '21AC and '28AC (no plain '28A that I know of) added a little, but it's only considered a "permanent" 10.5" barrel since the comp can come off.

You wanna go "optional stocked/stockless", you'll need a full 16" barrel unless you wanna pay the NFA tax.

Jovan, you're right on the horizontal "forearm"--although some '28A1 Navys still had the vertical "foregrip"--note term difference please, there may be a test later...

 

[Jovan]

I think I'd rather get an attached stock and the "real" sized barrel in that case! And yes, I realize they did. I think the vertical was mainly used with the drums, though.

EDIT: Owing to the ergonomics of having a drum taking up room on the side of the weapon and your hand placement with a vertical vs. horizontal foregrip, I meant to say.

 

[Diamondback]

Actually, the stock was detachable from Day One up to the M1.

You can do a horizontal with a drum--it was done early on, and the Thompson in my photo is a vertical-foregrip with drum rails.

 

[The Wingnut]

The detachable stock provision on the receiver makes an ideal mounting point for...*ahem* dastardly projects. You know, mounts behind the grille of a vehicle, pintle mounts with multiple weapons, so on, so forth...

...not that anyone would actually DO that, oh, no...

 

[Diamondback]

...not that anyone would actually DO that, oh, no...

Of course not. I was actually thinking of using that fitting as a way to secure it into the rack, myself...

Seriously!

 

[carebear]

What I'd really like, purely for aesthetic purposes, is the short barrelled one. But as I understand, they're a pain and half to get. Even better would be full auto, but... that ain't happening with many of us.

SBR's (short barreled rifles) aren't really that hard. $5 if someone already cut the barrel, $200 if you have to pay a manufacturer to do it for you. Florida allows them.

(M15) What are the required transfer procedures for an individual who is not qualified as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer of NFA firearms?[Back]

ATF Form 4 (5320.4) must be completed, in duplicate. The transferor first completes the face of the form. The transferee completes the transferee's certification on the reverse of the form and must have the "Law Enforcement Certification" completed by the chief law enforcement officer.

The transferee is to place, on each copy of the form, a 2-inch by 2-inch photograph of the transferee taken within the past year (proofs, group photographs or photocopies are unacceptable). The transferee's address must be a street address, not a post office box. If there is no street address, specific directions to the residence must be included.

If State or local law requires a permit or license to purchase, possess, or receive NFA firearms, a copy of the transferee's permit or license must accompany the application. A check or money order for $200 ($5 for transfer of "any other weapon") shall be made payable to ATF by the transferor. All signatures on both copies must be in ink.

Fingerprints also must be submitted on FBI Form FD-258, in duplicate. Fingerprints must be taken by a person qualified to do so, and must be clear and classifiable. If wear or damage to the fingertips do not allow clear prints, and if the prints are taken by a law enforcement official, a statement on his or her official letterhead giving the reason why good prints are unobtainable should accompany the fingerprints.

Forward the completed application and appropriate tax payment to the Bureau of ATF, P.O. Box 73201, Chicago, IL 60673.

Transfer of the NFA firearm may be made only upon approval of the ATF Form 4 by the NFA Branch. If the application is approved, the original of the form with the cancelled stamp affixed showing approval will be returned to the applicant. If the tax application is denied, the tax will be refunded.

Upon approval of the ATF Form 4, the transferor should transfer the firearm as soon as possible, since the firearm is now registered to the transferee.

[26 U.S.C. 5812, 27 CFR 479.84-86]

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

It simply gave the infantry squad the capacity for several 2-4 round bursts without a reload in a man-portable, shoulder-fired package, basically (in WWII) a Garand without the 8-round and semi-auto limitation. The original concept (from WWI) was "firing while moving in the assault", as opposed to the (German) technique of squads alternating bases of fire using bipod-based LMGs (MG 34's and 42's).

True. The BAR fit in pretty well with the US theory of how automatic weapons should be used. The US essentially used auto weapons to provide covering fire for infantry with rifles to move up and fight effectively. It is thus not really surprising that the US didn't produce any really good light or medium machineguns at the time. More effort was placed on individual marksmanship training, and rifle technology rather than subguns or machineguns. In contrast, a German squad was designed to use its LMG as its primary offensive weapon. Squad members with rifles and subguns were used to support the machinegun.

 

[carebear]

Also, the BAR came about at the time of "walking fire", primarily a French/Brit idea IIRC, where everyone was to stand up and walk forward. Enough rifle fire from the hip, it was thought, would keep the bad guys' heads down during your assault. So machineguns wouldn't be necessary.

The BAR even had a belt-mounted "cup" to help support it while walking.

Obviously, WWI killed that concept of the stand-up assault, but American doctrine still remained (and remains) focused on the immediate assault as the first response in most situations. The BAR remained excellent for that immediate firepower purpose.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

Also, the BAR came about at the time of "walking fire", primarily a French/Brit idea IIRC, where everyone was to stand up and walk forward. Enough rifle fire from the hip, it was thought, would keep the bad guys' heads down during your assault. So machineguns wouldn't be necessary.

The Russians took the idea to an even further extreme. Russian infantry doctrine during WW2 still through the present day emphasizes broad infantry attacks "on line" using massed automatic weapons to cover and mask the soldiers until they reach enemy lines.

 

[Ghostsoldier]

What I'd really like, purely for aesthetic purposes, is the short barrelled one. But as I understand, they're a pain and half to get.

Naw, they aren't that much trouble to get...here's my M1A1 semi, and I've got a little over 1300 bucks in it, counting the $200 SBR tax stamp, the 10.5" barrel, and the GI wood....

It'a a hoot to shoot, and you get used to the weight after you hump it around all day in the field during a tactical event....
BTW, I'm a new guy here....and this forum is the cat's meow!
Rob

 

[SamMarlowPI]

Naw, they aren't that much trouble to get...here's my M1A1 semi, and I've got a little over 1300 bucks in it, counting the $200 SBR tax stamp, the 10.5" barrel, and the GI wood....
It'a a hoot to shoot, and you get used to the weight after you hump it around all day in the field during a tactical event....
BTW, I'm a new guy here....and this forum is the cat's meow!
Rob

that's really really neat Ghost...

 

[Ghostsoldier]

Thanks, Sam...I do WW2 Reenacting as a Corporal with the 36th Armored Infantry Battalion out of Fla/Georgia/Tenn, but I collect a lot of things vintage, and I stumbled over this site by accident several months ago...I was lurking for a while, then I saw this post and figured it was one I could relate to, so I put in my .02 worth...
Rob

 

[AeroDillo]

Isn't there a wait on those? I've been considering having mine SBR-ed, so I'd appreciate any insight you could provide on the matter.

 

[Ghostsoldier]

Isn't there a wait on those? I've been considering having mine SBR-ed, so I'd appreciate any insight you could provide on the matter.

Aero,
Not that I'm aware of. I bought mine from Sarco, Inc. out of an issue of Shotgun News (their website does not list them-you have to call), but it was a couple of years ago. What took the longest was the SBR tax stamp from the ATF...about 2 months. The barrel cost me 100 bucks from Sarco, but if you decide to do it, do not buy the barrel before you get the stamp. The ATF would consider it "intent" to build an illegal NFA weapon if they found out, and let's just say....I hear it gets pretty cold in Levinworth this time of year! I changed the barrel myself in my shop using a pipe wrench and leather pad, and also drilled it for a bfa at the same time. It would also benefit you to change the stock recoil springs and buffer with a set of "E-Z Pull" springs, 'cause it's a bear to cock the bolt on the stock model; I can pull mine back with 2 fingers now. I put together a tutorial on the blank firing adapter intallation process over on a WW2 Reenacting site I also frequent; I can give you a link to that if you are considering the bfa, and also the E-Z Pull spring supplier if you like.
If there is anything else I can do to help, please let me know!
Rob