Thin and flimsy

[TVDinners]

I'm sure this question has already been answered numerous times, but eh... searching.... I don't lurk on this forum nearly as much as I ought to.
Any time I find an honest-to-God genuine fedora from the golden era, I find that while the craftsmanship itself is quite excellent (hey, a real bound edge! Hey, thick ribbon, beautiful liner, gorgeous leather sweatband, ect.) the felt is... well, wafer-thin. I find that while the shape is excellent, the finish is lovely, and the cut is tasteful- they crumple to the touch.
So my question is this: were most hats in the golden era of a lower quality than we expect out of the great hats of the golden era? I find that in movies of the era, the hats worn by some characters (not all) seem to crinkle a whole lot more than the thick, nicely stiffened hats I see around here. I'm getting the impression that these lovely crumpled beauties are the hats of the common man. I think that perhaps these cheaper-feeling (but still beaver felt) hats are just... what was worn in the golden era by people who were, you know, NOT Humphrey Bogart.

Any comments, sage words, and open insults are appreciated!

 

[Chinaski]

I'm sure you'll get an earful! I would venture that it seems you may be used to thinking quality is a stiff, shellacked affair that doesn't lose shape. Good vintage fedoras are able to be molded, almost like clay. They'll hold shape, but are soft and malleable. Again, I'm sure there's more to come...

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

I have never noticed that vintage hats "crumple to the touch" at all. I have about 25 vintage fedoras and all of them are soft felts, sure, but hold their shape perfectly well without crumpling. On the other hand, I wasn't around in the 1940s to handle the cheapies when they were new, so maybe I only have the hats of higher quality and the cheapies simply got used up and tossed away? It's a good questions, anyway.

 

[scottyrocks]

'Crumple to the touch' could just be the OP's way of saying 'very soft and malleable,' without not knowing any better. TVDinners, do you have any pictures of these crumply hats that we could look at? Hopefully, there will folks here that will reassure you that what you have is indeed a high quality vintage hat.

 

[fmw]

I understand him perfectly. what he means is that the felt has become soft and the crease will get out of shape with the slightest touch. My Borsalino Diamante is like that. I think that's probably true of old felt, regardless of the quality of the hat. Obviously, the crease is restored with the same touch in the opposite direction. It isn't that the vintage hats won't stay in shape. It is that they are easier to get out of shape.

Felt is impregnated with shellac during manufacture to give it body. Over time and use, the shellac breaks down and the felt loses some body. The felt becomes softer. Actually, you can buy brand new hats that are as soft as the vintage hats were when they were new. My new Stetson Whippets are examples of this. They feel like vintage hats but there is nothing vintage about them. On the other hand some modern hats have quite a bit of shellac and are quite stiff. My Stetson Open Road is a good example of that as is any modern derby.

My point is that it isn't so much a matter of quality as it is the way in which the felt bodies were prepared prior to making up the hats. I'll go out on a limb and say that I believe the modern shellacs (polymer resins) probably have more longevity than the shellacs they used prior to the plastics revolution. In other words, a modern hat will, theoretically, keep its body longer. I don't know this to be fact but logic would say it is true.

You can restore some stiffness to vintage hats as well by adding shellac if you prefer them to be a little stiffer. You can buy stiffener in a can or you can send your hat to a hatter for blocking.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Welcome to the Lounge, TVDinners.

What you describe as a problem is actually what most of us look for in a vintage hat. Yes, as a generality, felt was much thinner back then, and most modern manufacturers cannot or do not match that level of thinness. There were several periods over the decades where lightweight felts were popular, as these DO crumple to the touch, as some are almost paper-thin. However, the lightweights are not indicative of the majority of hats from the past. There were also medium and heavyweight felts as well, so there was quite a bit of variety. But the generality still holds, that yesteryears' medium and heavyweight felts can be thinner than today's medium and heavyweight felts. It was the style back then, not a quality issue, and many of us consider modern felt inferior because of this.

Brad

 

[HeyMoe]

I have a modern fedora that has very soft fur felt - soft enough that it is difficult to get the hat off my head by using the brim (with one hand, two it's no problem) It molds well and feels very comfortable. Is this level of softness correct?

 

[alanfgag]

No right or wrong in felt... just what you like, and it might take a lot of hat handling to know what it is that you like. I have 2 modern Borsalinos with very soft felt - I don't care for either. I have several velour finish hats that are very soft, but will hold a pinch when encouraged with a little steam. A very different type of softness here. In my small but growing collection (have to watch that growing thing) the vintage lightweight felts occupy a prized place. For most of the year (even in Buffalo) a lightweight hat is the most comfortable to wear, and a 2 ounce beaver felt body that can be molded to any shape and retain it is a special thing and one that is not available to hatmakers in today's market. Just my .02.

 

[John in Covina]

There is an on going controversy as to whether vintage felts are better than modern. Some say yes others say it is the the affect of aging improves the felt over time. Most of us here prefer soft over stiff if i have read the threads right.

What you can do is have the hat cleaned and blocked, the blocking will act like a pressing on a suit "crisp up" the shape and give a bit more stiffness to the felt.

If you crave stiffness in the felt you can consider getting the western hat spray hat stiffener. It is a shellac that penetrates the felt and sets up so you need to have the felt in the shape you want it and let it dry. Also the hat probably needs to be pretty clean so the stiffener doesn't set the dirt into the felt.

 

[jimmy the lid]

First off, I think that, if one is used to wearing a thicker felt, then many vintage fedoras can feel rather insubstantial in comparison. But, over time, I think that many vintage fedora wearers come to really appreciate the art involved in making a lighter weight, quality fedora. Such lids are actually quite versatile, and can be worn in a variety of seasons and conditions.

In the end, however, it's all a matter of personal preference. TVDinners, your own preference may well be a thicker, medium weight felt. If so, those kinds of lids are out there in vintage land. Keep an eye out for lids like the Dobbs 20, Knox 20, Stetson Sovereign/Twenty, etc. Lids like these frequently feature medium weight felt which has a much more substantial feel than a vintage dress-weight fedora. Vintage lids that are identified as "15"s may also yield what you are looking for (including Stetson 3X dress fedoras). That's not to say that all such lids with these designations fit the bill -- but, your odds are much better of finding a medium weight felt with these kinds of hats.

Good luck in your search, and welcome to the Lounge!

Cheers,
JtL

 

[monbla256]

I'm sure this question has already been answered numerous times, but eh... searching.... I don't lurk on this forum nearly as much as I ought to.
Any time I find an honest-to-God genuine fedora from the golden era, I find that while the craftsmanship itself is quite excellent (hey, a real bound edge! Hey, thick ribbon, beautiful liner, gorgeous leather sweatband, ect.) the felt is... well, wafer-thin. I find that while the shape is excellent, the finish is lovely, and the cut is tasteful- they crumple to the touch.
So my question is this: were most hats in the golden era of a lower quality than we expect out of the great hats of the golden era? I find that in movies of the era, the hats worn by some characters (not all) seem to crinkle a whole lot more than the thick, nicely stiffened hats I see around here. I'm getting the impression that these lovely crumpled beauties are the hats of the common man. I think that perhaps these cheaper-feeling (but still beaver felt) hats are just... what was worn in the golden era by people who were, you know, NOT Humphrey Bogart.

Any comments, sage words, and open insults are appreciated!

I'm also a fountain pen collector and a similar discussion about vintage nibbs vs modern nibs concerning the flexibility of the vintage / stiffness of the modern. Generally speaking, most product manufactureres make their products to sell and therefore adjust them to the demands of their buying public. The other thing brought out in the nib discussion was the age/usage factor. Pen nibs that were made from 18k gold and used for 50/60/70 years tend to be far more flexible today than they were when new and I would put forward this as a possible fact with the older felt. It has beeen used, handled far more than a new hat so it stands to reason that it would change somewhat in it's "feel" over the years. JMHO

Onward thru the Fog

 

[fmw]

Interesting. I have no 2 oz. hats so I don't have the same frame of reference others do. I have two "vintage" hats. The Borsalino is 3 1/4 oz and the Akubra is 3 1/2 oz. Both are stingy brims. My modern Whippet is 4 1/2 oz but it has a medium size brim so one would expect it to be heavier than the two "vintage" models. Perhaps one has to go further back in history or to a higher price point to find a 2 oz. hat. Very interesting information for me.

 

[alanfgag]

Good luck in your search, and welcome to the Lounge!
Cheers,
JtL

Yes, a welcome is in order here. Lots of excellent reference in these pages to help you in your search... enjoy the ride!

 

[alanfgag]

Interesting. I have no 2 oz. hats so I don't have the same frame of reference others do. I have two "vintage" hats. The Borsalino is 3 1/4 oz and the Akubra is 3 1/2 oz. Both are stingy brims. My modern Whippet is 4 1/2 oz but it has a medium size brim so one would expect it to be heavier than the two "vintage" models. Perhaps one has to go further back in history or to a higher price point to find a 2 oz. hat. Very interesting information for me.

When I visited Gary White at the Custom Hatter with a few hats last month, he admired my Borso featherweight and identified it as a two ounce body... he commented that it is not possible to buy a two ounce felt body today. The hat itself is about 2.5 ounces with lining. I enjoy my very lightweight hats. To me there is something special when a design is spare but the essence and functionality are retained... a very personal preference.

But I also like a heavier hat in the wind and on a cold and snowy day. Guess that's why we need two or three of these things... 8^)

 

[randooch]

Welcome, TVDinners. I'll weigh in with the observation that the felt thickness, stiffness, density, and weight all vary within my collection, and I reach for different hats for different occasions. Getting in and out of a car while wearing the stiffer ones is a real pain: every little bump against the door frame or the visor feels like a personal rebuke. But if I'm taking off on a wintry walk through town, that's no longer an issue. And some days you just feel like wearing a lighter weight hat, or a thicker, more substantial one.

Here's my advice: amass a collection!

 

[Chinaski]

When I visited Gary White at the Custom Hatter with a few hats last month, he admired my Borso featherweight and identified it as a two ounce body... he commented that it is not possible to buy a two ounce felt body today. The hat itself is about 2.5 ounces with lining. I enjoy my very lightweight hats. To me there is something special when a design is spare but the essence and functionality are retained... a very personal preference.

But I also like a heavier hat in the wind and on a cold and snowy day. Guess that's why we need two or three of these things... 8^)

Alan, you and FMW both mention the weight of the felt. Are these weights standardized? How does one know the weight of the felt? Interesting stuff...

 

[TVDinners]

I have to admit, I fell in love with the little featherweight devil while I was in the shop. It framed my head better than any hat I've ever worn, and it just looked right. When I have money, I shall come 'round and rescue it. (the poor creature was stuffed on a shelf underneath a pile of other very old vintage fedoras, and perhaps a derby or two. The world is a cruel place for a hat.) As for my preference, I absolutely love the lighter-weight felt, but I do think I may want to stiffen it just a bit. Not that I have a preference for stiffer hats, but because the crown has been handled/abused so often than it's threatening to wear a hole through the edges where the teardrop keeps getting caved-in. A little stiffness should keep it from caving in from the touch of a finger. As for the parts where it's about to wear through, there's probably nothing that can be done but prevention, right?

 

[alanfgag]

Alan, you and FMW both mention the weight of the felt. Are these weights standardized? How does one know the weight of the felt? Interesting stuff...

A hatmaker would be the best person to explain the specifications that accompany a felt blank or hat body that they purchase. As you handle more of these, your feel for the subtle differences between felts and finishes will become more developed.

In my experience with vintage hats, steaming will reactivate some stiffeners and leave the felt firmer than before. It also helps to remove marks and scuffs from long term storage, softens wrinkles in ribbons and generally refreshes a vintage hat. It will also allow you to modify and hold the crease or bash that you prefer. The magic of H20!

 

[mayserwegener]

I think it is all about the style hat and the expected feel. When Borsalino made a German City / Homburg style hat they would match the weight and feel of similar models from Mayser and Wegener. I have very high quality felts that purposely do not take a side pinch / dent. This 1930s Hückel Superior is a good example of such a hat (also one my finest period).

 

[alanfgag]

I have very high quality felts that purposely do not take a side pinch / dent.

Tell us more about this.

Some homburgs beg for a side pinch, but I have a couple that seem to resist it. I figured it was my ambivalence about style that accounted for the resistance... but could it be the hat form fighting back?