Then vs. Now....

[MadDawg]

I have what I think to be a good conversation question....forgive me if this has been conversed already...

Is the primary reason for the initial distaste for new production hats because of a noticeable quality difference from back in the day?? I will try to be brief with my analysis, but bear with me...

From what I can find in my research, EVERYBODY wore hats in the 30's, 40's 50's, so obviously production demand had to be high. Department stores carried ample stock and hat shops were on every corner, so although they probably weren't produced on mass automated machinery to the degree they are today, they definately weren't all "hand crafted." Also, again from what I can tell, a good quality hat (one that would be actively sought out today by any one of us) cost about $7-12 back in the day. Today, a "quality" hat will cost $200-300 from a custom maker in most cases and the $75-150 mass production line (Stetson, Dobbs, etc...) are generally discussed as noticeably lacking in quality. I am definately not an economic major, but I don't think $7-12 back in the 40's is equivilent to $250-300 today is it??

So my question for conversation is this.....is our de-valuing of modern production hats based upon actual quality differences or is it mostly out of (forgive the term) ignorant bias? I don't think grandad bought his hat in the 40's with the idea that it would last for 20-30, or even 10 years, but because his did, we seem to expect that from our modern hats? Does that make sense??

Please don't get me wrong...I am not bashing (pun intended) new hats or one's preference for vintage. I own a collection that includes modern production Stetsons, a vintage Dobbs, and an Art Fawcett custom. While my VS definately feels superior, I just can't imagine that his quality was standard type in the 30's, 40's or 50's.

Again, I am not trying to be confrontational....just picking brains and thought processes.

I look forward to your comments.

 

[Mulceber]

I am definately not an economic major, but I don't think $7-12 back in the 40's is equivilent to $250-300 today is it??

Probably not $250-300. If I had to guess, somewhere in the $100-150 range. It is true that, on the whole, vintage hats were superior to the ones produced today - I imagine that that was also partly because people back then dealt with hats on a daily basis and developed something of an eye for what was good and what wasn't, whereas today, most of the hat buyers out there (except for the members of this classy establishment) don't really know quality, and so the hat companies can get away with selling a second or even third rate product.

To a certain extent though, you're right, the quality of vintage hats is exaggerated: after it's been around for a few years, felt "dies" - it kind of settles and becomes less prone to changing and tapering. Thus, a lot of the hats that seem so superior to us seem that way because they're 70 years old and the felt is long-since dead. Also, we have to keep in mind that a lot of the cheap hats back then probably didn't survive as they were treated as disposable by their owners, as opposed to a lot of the nicer hats which were stowed away in closets and eventually made their way onto eBay. So yes, you're right that Art Fawcett's level of quality was not the standard back then. Then again, I think that a lot of the hats produced by Stetson nowadays would probably be considered pretty poor by vintage standards. Probably a good equivalent (both in terms of price and quality) is Akubra. At least, that's what I understand from all the time I've spent listening to the real experts on these forums. -M

 

[Michael Carter]

According to the inflation calculator, what cost $9 in 1935 would cost $139.22 in 2009. In 1945 that same $9 hat would cost $106.15 in 2009. No figures are yet available for 2010.

I'd say a department store hat or hat shop hat back then would be about the same as a Stetson, Dobbs, or Jaxon hat today. Nothing wrong with an off-the-rack hat of any period.

Has quality suffered in 50 years time? If made here, probably not as much as one might think. Prices and inflation reflect just about everything else made in the US which isn't much any more. Though prices on domestically produced hats might be higher than inflation would suggest, that may have to do with demand decreasing over the decades since the 70's.

Ya pays yer money and ya wears yer hat.

 

[Mulceber]

btw, Carter, would you mind posting a link to the inflation calculator? That'd be a cool site to have bookmarked. -M

 

[monbla256]

You pose some VERY INTERESTING points in your questions.
First, I know my father expected his hats to last for as long as he was willing to wear them, though I cannot say how long that was in his mind. I do remembering him taking some he had had since the 50's down to the Salvation Army back in the 70's as they "...were to old"
And is the value of todays upper end and mid-range fur felt hats on a par with the prices for the same in the preceding decades? I'll merely provide a link to a chart of dollar values and CPI from the 1800's to the present: You decide

http://mykindred.com/cloud/TX/Documents/dollar/

And remember an IMPORTANT thing, 3/4/5 decades ago a hat was a STANDARD piece of male clothing and were produced in FAR greater quantities than the NICHE MARKET hats made today, either custom or production items. So it stands to reason that many things would be DIFFERENT in that regard. I'm sure there were probably as many lousy $10.00 hats as there were supurb $10.00 hats then. They were a MANUFACTURED, RETAIL item and we all know the variety there can be in that

 

[Michael Carter]

btw, Carter, would you mind posting a link to the inflation calculator? That'd be a cool site to have bookmarked. -M

Yes it certainly is. Here you are: http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

 

[Mulceber]

NICE, so my VS custom would be almost a $20 hat in 1934's market! -M

 

[Salty O'Rourke]

I look at this way - my dad graduated college in 1949 (got a late start thanks to the war, but got to go to college thanks to the GI Bill) and went to work for the grand sum of $60.00 per week - and a 5 1/2 day work week at that. In other words, a $10 hat was about a day's pay for the average working stiff, more if you consider after-tax wages. I bought my Akubra Campdraft for about $105.00, shipped from Australia, and you can find Stetsons for around $150.00. I imagine the average working stiff today is bringing home somewhere between those two figures.

I think the inflation calculator is going to give you a skewed result because hats just aren't as popular and therefore are more expensive to make per unit sold - manufacturers can't take advantage of the same economies of scale that they could in 1950. Consider how much a pair of socks would cost if for some reason the demand for socks had paralleled the demand for men's hats. Those of us who still demanded socks would have to pay more for them because the supply would be low due to the indifference of the general population.

I recall my grandfather wearing hats, but he seemed to have only two or three. Hats were like shoes/gloves/ties/etc - meant to be taken care of, but not something expected to last forever.

I often read here that the felting process continues long after a hat is made and retailed, so it could be that in 70 years or so today's felt will be similar to what we see and touch when we handle a nice vintage hat.

Personally, my take on modern hats, especially the current Stetson/Dobbs offerings, is that the quality is okay but I just don't care for the lower, tapering crowns and the brims that rarely exceed 2 3/8". I have 3 modern Beaver Brand hats (soon to be 4) and am quite satisfied with the quality. The brim and ribbon can be customized and the crowns are nice and tall. Akubra is another modern hat that I've come to admire, although I only own the Campdraft. I understand that Biltmore makes a nice hat, and Borsolino, while not what it once was, still makes a good hat.

What I'd like to know is, how much did it cost to have a hat custom-made in 1950?

 

[Dewhurst]

So my question for conversation is this.....is our de-valuing of modern production hats based upon actual quality differences or is it mostly out of (forgive the term) ignorant bias?

I'm sure of two things:

1. There are quality differences
2. There is bias

It is inevitable, but it is permissible. Unless people become willfully unreasonable in their opinions, but that doesn't happen much here.

Now, I am of the opinion that the hats being manufactured today by companies such as Beaver Brand Hats, Stetson, Borsalino, Biltmore, etc., etc., are very nice hats and a joy to own. The hats being produced these days are good hats, that will last while looking good, and can be worn with pride.

The desire for a specific "look" is what propels many people to require exceptionally well made hats that surpass even your average production hat both vintage and modern. If manufacturers are not producing a style you want, especially a style that kinda sorta went out of style multiple decades ago (except in our hearts, of course) you are forced to turn elsewhere. Fortunately, those "elsewhere" custom hatters exist. Unfortunately, they ain't cheap, and tend to deal in the strictly "NICE!" category of hats. It takes a viciously long time to get them, they set you back a pretty penny, but they are quite a bit better than shelf deals both then and now.

Still, you'd have to pry my "off the shelf" fedoras from my cold dead grip. They are my goto hats, and I always cruise the racked productions first when requiring or desiring a brand new hat.

 

[suitedcboy]

What I would really like to know that might lead to some different opinions: Is there anyone here who is "experienced" enough that they sampled and purchased hats 50 to 60 years ago? If so, did they feel as great back then as those same hats do today?
My curiosity is do the new factory hats of today, at least the blends that would be somewhat comparable to the blends of old, have a somewhat similar feel as those old hats did when they were fresh and new?
Does the "dead felt" affect make for a better hand to the hat or was there really a huge difference between the hats when both are compared when they are freshly made?
I do know that a couple of westerns I have that are 20-22 years old and have been my "Sunday go to meeting" hats, not worn out in the rain much nor sweated or soiled too much, have aged to have a much different feel and are not so cardboard stiff as when new.
I have hats I have worn LOTS and have been steamed and shaped, rained on, and cleaned and those have softened up extensively. They are not representative of some of the unworn or worn old fedoras that have been purchased around here that have that soft feel but hold dry bashes so well.
If any of you can answer or can ask someone you know, maybe by taking an old Stetson and asking if that hat would have felt so nice 50+ years ago on the shelf at the local dept store, please do!

 

[Yeps]

I was just running the the Dept of Labor's inflation calculator, and an Open Road in 1949 costs about the same as a Campdraft now, including shipping. Interesting.

 

[BanjoMerlin]

If you would like a tour of the Hat Corporation of America factory in 1941 CLICK HERE to see the article in Popular Science November 1941 - go to pages 52 - 58.

I'm thinking the hat factories back then were larger and turned out significantly higher production than today.

As far as "custom" hats, most hat shops would have had the equipment and knowledge needed to customize a factory-made hat however you wanted it. Marking the sweatband with the owner's initials and adjusting the sizing would have been common and may have been included in the purchase price. I doubt there were many local hat shops that could start with a skin and make you a hat. But, given the equipment I've seen in old hat shop photos, it seems they could get cones and make a hat almost from "scratch".

Economic data from the mid 20th century indicates that the "average" family spent about 10% of their income on clothing. After filling his wife's wardrobe and cladding the kids, the average married man would not have been able to buy more than one or two hats over the course of a year so he would have needed those hats to last. He probably only bought a new hat when he "needed" a new hat.

The more well-to-do men could have (and would have) purchased new hats for each season. They most likely would not have abused those hats and some of them have survived to today, though I imagine most were purged from the wardrobe when they went out of "style".

My preference for vintage hats is mostly driven by value. The question of whether the vintage hats are better than new ones takes on a new angle when purchase price is factored in. I paid $35 for my 1950s 3X Beaver Stetson Open Road, even if it is not better than a new one I believe it is a much better value for the money.

 

[Aureliano]

Great conversation. I just came back from a month (almost) long tour of Italy. I went to many hat shops that have been around since the 1800s. I asked this very same question to a couple of them and they both seemed to agree in that the issue with some modern hats is the inconsistency of attention to detail. At the Borsalino Museum in Alessandria I was explained that the felting process has evolved but not so much as to radically change the outcome of a hat. The problem, according to them, is that young people aren't willing to work in the industry (thus the skills and craftsmanship is getting lost) anymore as it is not as profitable as it was years ago. This means lack of enthusiasm, lack of attention, way too much reliance on machines... and poor handling of those machines. That would explain why some Borsalinos look and feel better that others. But I'm convinced that this phenomenon is not new. I'm sure that back in the 20's 30's, etc there were careless finishers as well. Careless blockers and flangers. I guess the difference was that back then there was a more strict "final check" before the hats left the factory. Brands like Barbisio, Panizza that are very popular in Italy (I bought one of each! will post pics soon) have far superior attention to detail: Unnoticeable stitching for the ribbon, nice and even, well weighted felt throughout the hat, right amount of stiffness, nice blocking: all these are factors I consider before buying a hat, wheather modern or vintage.

 

[gtdean48]

A key element of the older hat process by the factories was that they "aged" the felt for quite a while. That does not happen in modern factory or even custom hats today = ties up too much cost in the system.
IMHO, getting to start with an aged felt blank has to effect the hand of the end product hat.

 

[Tomasso]

What I would really like to know that might lead to some different opinions: Is there anyone here who is "experienced" enough that they sampled and purchased hats 50 to 60 years ago? If so, did they feel as great back then as those same hats do today?
My curiosity is do the new factory hats of today, at least the blends that would be somewhat comparable to the blends of old, have a somewhat similar feel as those old hats did when they were fresh and new?
Does the "dead felt" affect make for a better hand to the hat or was there really a huge difference between the hats when both are compared when they are freshly made?.........If any of you can answer or can ask someone you know, maybe by taking an old Stetson and asking if that hat would have felt so nice 50+ years ago on the shelf at the local dept store, please do!

I think that Johnnyphi was thinking along the same lines when he asked the FLoungers who bought his NOS vintage lids to opine on their purchases. One would think that with hundreds of hats being sold to experienced aficionados that there would be a fertile group to query but unfortunately there wasn't much of a response.

 

[Aureliano]

A key element of the older hat process by the factories was that they "aged" the felt for quite a while. That does not happen in modern factory or even custom hats today = ties up too much cost in the system.
IMHO, getting to start with an aged felt blank has to effect the hand of the end product hat.

I didn't know that. Interesting point.

 

[Tomasso]

they "aged" the felt for quite a while.

How long would they age them?

 

[Mulceber]

If gtdean48 and I are thinking of the same process, it's not aging in the sense that you age fine wine (ie. by just leaving it in a cellar for years), but instead it was a process of chemical and/or physical treatment (not sure which) that would make the hat more weather resistant, less prone to shrinkage and go a long way toward killing the felt. He's wrong though to say that no one does it anymore: Adventurebilt Hat Co. does. -M

 

[rlk]

Inflation Calculators are not so helpful with hats. They barely changed price from 1920's to early 1960's relative to general merchandise. A $10.00 hat was common throughout this period(even in the late 19th Century). There was large capacity(increased productivity) and then declining demand in the big picture. Since early 1960's Houses and College Education have increased about 20X but Computers are cheaper.

 

[JimWagner]

50 years ago I would have been 13 years old. My grandfather and uncles wore hat though my Dad did not. I don't recall ever touching one of their hats. Even if I had I wouldn't have been doing so with the idea of checking out its feel or "hand". At 13 I wouldn't have known a good hat from a great hat - or cared much. The point is, it would be kind of tough to find anyone old enough to have any reliable experience with hats during that time period, let alone before that.

Now, that said, I have a Stetson that I bought off eBay last year that dates back to the 50's and had never really been worn. It was still in its original box and immaculate. Not a moth divot. Not a stain. Looked brand new. It's a nice hat. It's in better condition than my Stetson Open Road that I bought in the early 80's and worn a lot.

But I can't really tell any quality difference between the two. If anything, the older hat is stiffer. I sort of remember the Open Road being stiffer when I got it new, but back then it was just a hat and I wouldn't have even known what the term "hand" meant.

So, for me I don't really see much if any quality difference between my Stetson from the 50's, my Open Road from the 80's and my Moose River from the 90's. I haven't bought a (fur felt) Stetson recently, though.

As far as softness and hand go, as well as general quality, the Akubra Camp Draft I bought earlier this year beats any of my Stetsons. I have a few other Akubras that, while really nice hats, are just as stiff as the Stetsons and of comparable quality.

For me the bottom line is that hats vary even within a brand and all you can really say is that a great hat is where you find it. I just wish they were easier to find.