The Yoga Pants trend

[Noirblack]

I think this is a good point. If you judge by appearance you could have a "false negative" and assume that someone who is dressed down is bad news. And you'll also get "false positives" because a person was well-dressed.

Who are the biggest thieves out there? White men wearing ties. They just steal with a pen. Just ask Bernie Madoff's victims.

 

[reetpleat]

Yes, as through this world I've wandered
I've seen lots of funny men;
Some will rob you with a six-gun,
And some with a fountain pen.
And as through your life you travel,
Yes, as through your life you roam,
You won't never see an outlaw
Drive a family from their home.

 

[Undertow]

...Who are the biggest thieves out there? White men wearing ties. They just steal with a pen. Just ask Bernie Madoff's victims.

Noir, by "biggest", I'm sure you mean, "most successful with highest yield", right? Certainly, there are a number of Madoff's with varying degrees of success. On the other hand, do you suppose we could count on two hands how many knife weilding drug addicts walk the streets looking to roll someone? Or what about the poor robbing/killing the poor? Or home invasions? Car break-ins? It's not as if these statistics are reported every day. I would argue that there are far more shabbily dressed individuals robbing folks than well-dressed ones, but the well-dressed ones garner much more attention. On the other hand, I would agree that there are psychopaths working at every level of society, regardless of dress.

The only thing I would care about is results. Is he getting good grades and learning something. if so, that is good enough for me.

Reet, at what point do we expect anyone in society to adhere to social norms? Or should we have social norms at all? Should we throw out suits and dresses altogether and just wear loincloths? I'm not trying to be ridiculous, I mean it seriously. At what point do we draw a line?

 

[Flicka]

Reet, at what point do we expect anyone in society to adhere to social norms? Or should we have social norms at all? Should we throw out suits and dresses altogether and just wear loincloths? I'm not trying to be ridiculous, I mean it seriously. At what point do we draw a line?

I'm happy so long as social norms allow me to dress vintage. And by 'allow' I mean that people don't spit after me in the street.

ETA: and going to law school in the grunge era, fully embracing it, I bet I didn't look like the girl who'd always done all the required reading for the whole term by the second week, and who would eventually graduate top 5% of my class, but there you have it.

 

[Pompidou]

Noir, by "biggest", I'm sure you mean, "most successful with highest yield", right? Certainly, there are a number of Madoff's with varying degrees of success. On the other hand, do you suppose we could count on two hands how many knife weilding drug addicts walk the streets looking to roll someone? Or what about the poor robbing/killing the poor? Or home invasions? Car break-ins? It's not as if these statistics are reported every day. I would argue that there are far more shabbily dressed individuals robbing folks than well-dressed ones, but the well-dressed ones garner much more attention. On the other hand, I would agree that there are psychopaths working at every level of society, regardless of dress.



Reet, at what point do we expect anyone in society to adhere to social norms? Or should we have social norms at all? Should we throw out suits and dresses altogether and just wear loincloths? I'm not trying to be ridiculous, I mean it seriously. At what point do we draw a line?

We should wear suits if we want, or loincloths if we want. It'd be just as much a tragedy that TFL types were forced unhappily to change as it would the average Joes. I've gotten more new ideas from people different from me than I have from people like me. I'm not sure where the idea that no matter what happens, the whole of society has to follow suit came from, but I don't believe it's the case. If the whole world went loincloth, and you wanted to wear a suit, I'd help you find one. The very freedom not to dress formally allows us to dress formally. It works both ways. Relish that freedom.

 

[reetpleat]

Noir, by "biggest", I'm sure you mean, "most successful with highest yield", right? Certainly, there are a number of Madoff's with varying degrees of success. On the other hand, do you suppose we could count on two hands how many knife weilding drug addicts walk the streets looking to roll someone? Or what about the poor robbing/killing the poor? Or home invasions? Car break-ins? It's not as if these statistics are reported every day. I would argue that there are far more shabbily dressed individuals robbing folks than well-dressed ones, but the well-dressed ones garner much more attention. On the other hand, I would agree that there are psychopaths working at every level of society, regardless of dress.





Reet, at what point do we expect anyone in society to adhere to social norms? Or should we have social norms at all? Should we throw out suits and dresses altogether and just wear loincloths? I'm not trying to be ridiculous, I mean it seriously. At what point do we draw a line?

I think every culture has it's norms set by those with the most status, and those who wish to belong, quickly suss them out. On a high school campus, kids pretty quickly figure out which jeans to wear, and on college campuses, they quickly figure out what dress will be accepted and what dress will ostracise them. Who am I to tell a college kid how he or she should dress. Heck, i make plenty of money from working with people who show up in jeans and dirty work t shirts, after a long day of truck driving or whatever, so i don't really care how they dress either. on the other hand, if you want a job, sure, dress the part.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Reet, at what point do we expect anyone in society to adhere to social norms? Or should we have social norms at all? Should we throw out suits and dresses altogether and just wear loincloths? I'm not trying to be ridiculous, I mean it seriously. At what point do we draw a line?

If loincloths became a social norm, the self-appointed rebels of society would insist on their right to go naked. If we get to that rock-bottom point, at least there's nowhere else to go but up. Unless somebody decides it tain't no sin to take off your skin and dance around in your bones.

 

[Pompidou]

If loincloths became a social norm, the self-appointed rebels of society would insist on their right to go naked. If we get to that rock-bottom point, at least there's nowhere else to go but up. Unless somebody decides it tain't no sin to take off your skin and dance around in your bones.

That and we'd have the option to remain self appointed rebels and wear suits.

 

[reetpleat]

A rather timely article, i think, to this discussion. The high cost of looking low class.

http://gawker.com/5904134/the-high-cost-of-looking-low-class

 

[LizzieMaine]

A rather timely article, i think, to this discussion. The high cost of looking low class.

http://gawker.com/5904134/the-high-cost-of-looking-low-class

Gad. I've got a pair of greasy, grimy, oil-spotted, paint-spattered overalls hanging in my cellarway right now. First $1200 takes them.

 

[Undertow]

Flicka and Pompidou,

I agree with you both; I'm happy in a society that allows me to dress as I like. But shouldn't there ever be a time when one wears a "uniform" of sorts to an event? Or at least something a person could say "shows respect"?

Let's take a professional sporting event as example. Many fans find it acceptable, no, maybe obligatory, to wear their team colors, foam hats, face paint, etc. when the home team is playing. No one is FORCED to wear those silly outfits, but they do it anyway. Or let's make this even more simple, many folks wear some kind of "acceptable" clothing to their jobs, whether it's khaki pants, or Dickies, or a suit. You don't see a lumberjack cutting down trees in his Crocs.

At what point do we transition from "casual" to "formal"? Where do we draw the line? Or at the very least, where do we say, "I should wear something decent to this funeral," or "I should not leave the house in my underwear,"?

 

[reetpleat]

Me, i am going to outdo all those fancy pants designers. My distressed clothes are also going to smell like vomit and urine too. I am going to make a fortune.

 

[MisterCairo]

I'm happy so long as social norms allow me to dress vintage. And by 'allow' I mean that people don't spit after me in the street.

ETA: and going to law school in the grunge era, fully embracing it, I bet I didn't look like the girl who'd always done all the required reading for the whole term by the second week, and who would eventually graduate top 5% of my class, but there you have it.

Did you dress grunge for your job interviews? Or did you do what every grunger in my law school class did when going out job hunting - get a haircut and a suit?

 

[Pompidou]

Flicka and Pompidou,

I agree with you both; I'm happy in a society that allows me to dress as I like. But shouldn't there ever be a time when one wears a "uniform" of sorts to an event? Or at least something a person could say "shows respect"?

Let's take a professional sporting event as example. Many fans find it acceptable, no, maybe obligatory, to wear their team colors, foam hats, face paint, etc. when the home team is playing. No one is FORCED to wear those silly outfits, but they do it anyway. Or let's make this even more simple, many folks wear some kind of "acceptable" clothing to their jobs, whether it's khaki pants, or Dickies, or a suit. You don't see a lumberjack cutting down trees in his Crocs.

At what point do we transition from "casual" to "formal"? Where do we draw the line? Or at the very least, where do we say, "I should wear something decent to this funeral," or "I should not leave the house in my underwear,"?

I think that private entities have the right to enforce dress codes. If I worked for you, I'd follow your rules. If you had none, I'd do as I liked. If I visited your house, I'd respect your rules. Hats off if you said so, shoes off if it was what everyone did in your house. I'm against public dress codes. Fortunately, private entities far outnumber public. In a world where people wanted them, dress codes could easily be almost everrywhere. My right to do what I want ends on someone else's property. I don't know what I'd do for my own wedding if ever, but I do know I'd respect someone else's. That said, the onus of enforcement is on the host. I'd only expect that others return the favor to me. In a world without dress codes, it's not fair to hold people to them, especially if they're decades dated.

 

[reetpleat]

I think that private entities have the right to enforce dress codes. If I worked for you, I'd follow your rules. If you had none, I'd do as I liked. If I visited your house, I'd respect your rules. Hats off if you said so, shoes off if it was what everyone did in your house. I'm against public dress codes. Fortunately, private entities far outnumber public. In a world where people wanted them, dress codes could easily be almost everrywhere. My right to do what I want ends on someone else's property. I don't know what I'd do for my own wedding if ever, but I do know I'd respect someone else's. That said, the onus of enforcement is on the host. I'd only expect that others return the favor to me. In a world without dress codes, it's not fair to hold people to them, especially if they're decades dated.

How about a hobo wedding. then, the only thing you would have to worry about is someone showing up in a suit. If they did, you could run them off as they were probably there to evict you from your encampment.

http://www.etsy.com/blog/en/2011/handmade-weddings-depression-era-hobo/

I wonder if, for fun, they had the ushers dressed as railroad yard bulls, beating people over the had with clubs.

 

[Undertow]

I think that private entities have the right to enforce dress codes. If I worked for you, I'd follow your rules. If you had none, I'd do as I liked. If I visited your house, I'd respect your rules. Hats off if you said so, shoes off if it was what everyone did in your house. I'm against public dress codes. Fortunately, private entities far outnumber public. In a world where people wanted them, dress codes could easily be almost everrywhere. My right to do what I want ends on someone else's property. I don't know what I'd do for my own wedding if ever, but I do know I'd respect someone else's. I'd only expect that others return the favor to me. In a world without dress codes, it's not fair to hold people to them, especially if they're decades dated.

Right! I think that is it, in its essence. I'm saying we should do things because we want to and because we think it's right, because we feel it's appropriate, or because we know it says, "I respect you and your event." I hate dress codes. Hate them. Always have. I prefer not to visit places that enforce anything above "No shirt, no shoes" policies.

Yet, it is my responsibility to contact the groom and say, "Chuck, should I wear a tux to this, or are you okay with me just wearing jeans?" And it's up to me to contact my hostess to say, "Sally, I'm going to be a little late for our luncheon but is it alright if I'm in a pair of slacks and jacket, or should I run home and switch into something more casual?"

If you're running down to the gas station to grab a 40oz beer and a pack of Camels, just make sure you have underwear on. But if you're going to a friend's house, or a bar, or the library, or class, or the doctor's office, or a funeral, OR EVEN WAL-MART...I mean, perhaps there should be a light bulb moment at some point that makes you wonder what would be appropriate?

And would it be so wrong to use tradition as a benchmark?

 

[reetpleat]

If you're running down to the gas station to grab a 40oz beer and a pack of Camels, just make sure you have underwear on.

But if you're going to a bar, ...I mean, perhaps there should be a light bulb moment at some point that makes you wonder what would be appropriate?

And would it be so wrong to use tradition as a benchmark?

And be sure to not wear a hoodie, lest you get shot at.

You obviously hav not been in some of the bars i have been in.

 

[Tango Yankee]

They are students. If you can't roll out of bed after a night of binge drinking or pot smoking, and throw on your sweats or yoga pants and flip flops, or just stay in your pajamas and go to class when you are in college, when can ya? Trust me, no one is more aware of what is appropriate and fits in with what everyone else is wearing than a high school or college student.

Here's where you've made a big assumption, at least regarding the students at the school I work for. I work for a career college, where the majority of our students are adults ranging from just out of high school (very few of those) to adults in their 50s or older. They tend to be the first in their family to go to school beyond high school. They tend to be and come from poor families. They are often going against peer pressure from their families and their friends by coming to school at all (what, you wanna be better than us?). For the most part they have never learned about such distinctions as dressing professionally. When I wore business casual students would ask why I was wearing a suit.

Part of our challenge in this environment is to teach them how to act and dress professionally when they are going out seeking jobs and when on the job. To that end the medical students are required to wear their scrubs and the other students are encouraged to dress appropriately for school. They don't always pay attention, but we try.

As I said, they simply don't know any better. Here's a good example: a while back I was at Wendy's waiting for my order. A young man came in and went to the counter, and asked for an application. He was wearing flip-flops, cut-offs, and a t-shirt that had the arms removed and a V cut down the sides. He turned to me and commented that he was tired, having been to a number of places to fill out applications that day. I was astounded that someone should look for work while looking like that, even if it was at fast food places, but then I realized that no one had taught him otherwise. It's just the way it is around here.

 

[reetpleat]

Here's where you've made a big assumption, at least regarding the students at the school I work for. I work for a career college, where the majority of our students are adults ranging from just out of high school (very few of those) to adults in their 50s or older. They tend to be the first in their family to go to school beyond high school. They tend to be and come from poor families. They are often going against peer pressure from their families and their friends by coming to school at all (what, you wanna be better than us?). For the most part they have never learned about such distinctions as dressing professionally. When I wore business casual students would ask why I was wearing a suit.

Part of our challenge in this environment is to teach them how to act and dress professionally when they are going out seeking jobs and when on the job. To that end the medical students are required to wear their scrubs and the other students are encouraged to dress appropriately for school. They don't always pay attention, but we try.

As I said, they simply don't know any better. Here's a good example: a while back I was at Wendy's waiting for my order. A young man came in and went to the counter, and asked for an application. He was wearing flip-flops, cut-offs, and a t-shirt that had the arms removed and a V cut down the sides. He turned to me and commented that he was tired, having been to a number of places to fill out applications that day. I was astounded that someone should look for work while looking like that, even if it was at fast food places, but then I realized that no one had taught him otherwise. It's just the way it is around here.

Well, it sounds like your school is a rathe unique situation. Four year colleges do not have any kind of mission to teach kids how to dress. I do find it odd that they make the medical students wear scrubs. I can't imagine this will somehow help their professional experience over some nice casual or business casual clothes.

As far as the kid goes, it is likely his application will be tossed in a pile with the others and he will be called for an interview just like every other applicant with the proper qualifications. I don't want to be too much of devil's advocate, because obviously anybody looking for a job ought to put their best foot forward. But don't be too shocked if the next time you see him, he is in a polyester cheap uniform.

 

[Noirblack]

Noir, by "biggest", I'm sure you mean, "most successful with highest yield", right? Certainly, there are a number of Madoff's with varying degrees of success. On the other hand, do you suppose we could count on two hands how many knife weilding drug addicts walk the streets looking to roll someone? Or what about the poor robbing/killing the poor? Or home invasions? Car break-ins? It's not as if these statistics are reported every day. I would argue that there are far more shabbily dressed individuals robbing folks than well-dressed ones, but the well-dressed ones garner much more attention. On the other hand, I would agree that there are psychopaths working at every level of society, regardless of dress.

That's right. I'm thinking of the individual who can do the most damage. Of course, sometimes it's groups of well dressed folks who get together to commit crimes. I saw an interesting piece on 60 Minutes this Sunday about the shenanigans going on at Lehman Brothers before they went bankrupt. Only one person who new what was going on within the company did anything about it. When he did the right thing and refused to sign off on the financials he was fired.