The Victory of Communism!

[Roger]

Warren Buffett is a baboose

JP, Warren Buffett second richest man in the world said he finds it obscene that he is in a lower percentage than his secretary.

I find it obscene being self employed I pay over 30% and big oil got a 14 billion dollar tax break after posting record profits.

Perhaps, Buffett is in a lower percentage because his "earned" income is lower than his secretary. He pays himself little on purpose. His "unearned" income is phenominally larger than his "earned" income. I don't trust Buffett.:rage:

For all those who squeal about tax breaks and tax dodges, the answer is very simple; eliminate all the tax breaks and just lower the marginal tax rates across the board, like Reagan did. But, the failures who succeeded him; George Bush Sr. and Bill Clinton sought to undo all the tax reforms that Reagan accomplished. Make the rates; 7%, 15% and 20%, but if you want total fairness go with a flat tax of 12% with NO DEDUCTIONS!:eusa_clap Instead of all this arguing over the minimum wage lower sales taxes, excise taxes, gas taxes, utility taxes. Those will help the more a lot more. Why are some states taxing food, over the counter medicines etc? Those hurt the poor way more than any increase in the minimum wage.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Thats not the case with Buffett. I'm all for a flat rate no dedustions for anyone or any corporations.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

You shouldn't even have to ask that question of me!!

Fine. Let's ask Dixon Cannon himself. Dixon, do you believe in giving to charities? .

I believe in private property, individual self-responsibility and freedom of choice. If that includes charity by some and for some, so be it. If that really means government WELFARE - I think you know that answer already!

As for me, "Ain't nobody's business...."

Respectfully,
Dixon Cannon

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Here's what Rand's Objectivist say about Altruism:

Objectivism In-Brief: Altruism


Rand defined altruism as the principle ``that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue, and value.''
One must distinguish between altruism and helping others. Simply helping others is not altruism: altruism is the belief that you have a duty to help others, that you owe others. As Rand put it, the issue is not whether or not you should give a dime to a beggar, but rather if you ``have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence.'' Altruism holds that one person's need is a blank check against the lives of others. Altruism holds that self-sacrifice is the good and that self-interest is evil.

Although some would call this characterization of altruism ``extreme,'' in fact altruism so defined pervades our culture. Ambition, greed, success: today these are viewed with suspicion at best, with downright hostility at worst. On the other hand, the New Deal, the Peace Corps, and ``a thousand points of light'' are upheld as great achievements or noble goals.

Although altruism claims to be based on ``love'' for man-kind, in practice altruism leads to suffering. On a personal level, altruism leads to unearned guilt. Personal achievement requires you to concentrate on yourself to the exclusion of others. If you accept altruism as the ``good,'' then to the extent that you achieve, you are left with the nagging feeling that you should be doing more to help others, e.g., by working in a soup kitchen or some other such activity. On an interpersonal level, altruism leads to suspicion and ill will. Since any person's need is a blank check drawn against the lives of others, each person knows that any stranger may cash this check at any time, and conversely each person feels that every stranger owes him something.

I think that sums it up readily. -Dixon Cannon

 

[Section10]

That makes sense if it's viewed as a duty. I also believe in the privacy aspect of giving. Does Rand say anything about the philosophy of charity?

 

[jazzbass]

Fun factoid: former jazz saxophonist Alan Greenspan (yes, that Alan Greenspan) has been an Ayn Rand disciple for most of his life.


.

I knew Greenspan was a Randian in his younger days but never knew he was a jazz sax player. Very hard to imagine...

jazzbass

 

[jazzbass]

Thats not the case with Buffett. I'm all for a flat rate no dedustions for anyone or any corporations.

How will that work? If we all pay they same tax rate on our gross receipts and there are no business deductions, no allowances will be made for business owners that require tools, machinery, etc.

If 2 people both make $100K and one merely collects a salary while the other has to spend half of his gross buying tools, etc. for his business, he will have to pay tax on $100k but be making only $50K after all is said and done. How can that be fair?

If I'm misunderstanding your definition of "flat" tax please correct me.



jazzbass

 

[geo]

This thread has gone way beyond the original topic, and it's become very interesting. After reading the last few pages, I was surprised to see that some are of the opinion that the victims of Katrina chose their fate and what happened to them is their own fault. That is plain stupid, and I don't often use this word. To wash one's hands of all responsability because "they chose to live there, they chose not to evacuate, they chose not to stock supplies" is very cynical. I don't believe that anyone chose to die, and yet many were left to die. There is no excuse for what happened during Katrina, and the whole world couldn't believe how such a thing could happen in a civilized country.

And connecting this with the original topic of communism, while all citizens of a country should be free, the government still has a responsability towards all its citizens, to protect them in cases of disaster and emergency. It's not up to the individual to protect himself against something like Katrina, because it's too big for the individual to handle. That's where the government moves in and takes responsibility. It seems to me that there is something of the old pioneer spirit left, when settlers were living by themselves in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by hostile tribes, and it was up to them to organize their defence, supplies, etc. That kind of thinking is archaic in this century.

 

[geo]

I can't get over this "they chose to" argument, the more I think of it, the more mad it gets me. You can't say that the population chose not to evacuate, chose to live there, and chose not to stock supplies, and therefore it's their own fault. Choices are not that easy to make, and are not free. Not everybody can leave their house and go; many have nowere to go, many have no cars. Also, it takes money to buy the supplies. Many people were and are living in N.O., it's been inhabited since a long time, even if it's below sea level. Holland too is below sea level.

Then, following the "they chose to" logic, one could very well argue that the authorities chose not to build a dam that would do its job, chose not to evacuate the people after Katrina struck, chose not to deliver supplies, and chose to let the city rot for a week. The insurance companies also chose not to pay for the damages.

My point is that it's not the victim's fault, it's the fault of an unprepared goverment that was unexplicably slow to react.

And finally, even if there are irresponsible people, who intentionally make all the wrong choices, it's still the government's responsability to take care of all of them.

They chose (against sanity and common sense and the weight of history) to believe that manmade structures could successfully protect them against force of nature.

Come on! Every time I walk over a man-made bridge, I believe, against sanity and common sense, that it will protect me against the force of nature called gravity. And everytime I board an aircraft, I hold the same foolish belief that it will protect be against said force. Even worse, I strongly hold the belief that the walls and roof of my house will, if the need occurs, protect me against the forces of wind, rain and snow. Even yet more foolishly, sometimes I have to admit that I drive through a tunnel, which I believe will protect me against the mountain above falling on my head!

 

[airfrogusmc]

How will that work? If we all pay they same tax rate on our gross receipts and there are no business deductions, no allowances will be made for business owners that require tools, machinery, etc.

If 2 people both make $100K and one merely collects a salary while the other has to spend half of his gross buying tools, etc. for his business, he will have to pay tax on $100k but be making only $50K after all is said and done. How can that be fair?

If I'm misunderstanding your definition of "flat" tax please correct me.



jazzbass

Good point Jazz...HHHNMMM OK how 'bout a flat tax after deductionslol lol

Still I would pay allot less if I only paid 12% and there is nothing fair about the tax structure now. Most major corps pay no or very little income tax and those that do average about 14%. What was I reading Enron got millions back every year.

Going on another side track read the Smartest Guys in the Room if you get a chance or see the movie.

 

[Section10]

That makes sense if it's viewed as a duty. I also believe in the privacy aspect of giving. Does Rand say anything about the philosophy of charity?

I went to the Atlas Society website and looked around. 15 minutes of reading hardly makes me an authority on objectivism, but you needn't bother with my question -- I think I know the answer.

 

[Twitch]

For whatever reason anyone would like to interject, the middle class as we knew it is eroding. At some point in the no so distant future we will have all the earmarks of a communist state- Rich elite and powerful versus has beens and never beens struggling for economic equalibrium.

Might all be headed for a Mad Max-ish scenario someday.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I knew Greenspan was a Randian in his younger days but never knew he was a jazz sax player. Very hard to imagine...

I hear you. Back in the late 1940s, Greenspan played tenor sax professionally in a Greenwich Village jazz band. (In fact, he attended the Juilliard School of Music.) Go figure!

.

 

[jazzbass]

Good point Jazz...HHHNMMM OK how 'bout a flat tax after deductionslol lol

Still I would pay allot less if I only paid 12% and there is nothing fair about the tax structure now. Most major corps pay no or very little income tax and those that do average about 14%. What was I reading Enron got millions back every year.

Going on another side track read the Smartest Guys in the Room if you get a chance or see the movie.

Well, the point of a progressive tax system was to keep the wealth from getting concentrated---not that it's working. I think a flat tax would actually benefit giant corps, not the working poor or even middle class people. It would probably depend on how it was implemented. You know what they say--the Devil is in the details....







jazzbass

 

[jazzbass]

..you've read all of Ayn Rand's material, so you're opinion is of course OBJECTIVE! (?) I think she mentions you in "The New Left: The Anti-Industrial Revolution". Read that have ya?

-dixon cannon

Oh no, I've been labeled!----by a Randian too!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


That's it for you Dixon!!

You know those black helipcopters that you fear so much???? They'll be circling around your house before dawn. Soon, all of your property, your business, your home and all your assets wil be nationalized for the public good. Your children will be forced to attend Bill Clinton Memorial High School, and they will be taught by bisexual interior decorators wearing Che Guevara t shirts and flip flops. All of Ayn Rands books will be used as coloring books for kids suffering from myopia--it won't be a cure but it will help with diagnosis. All of Lincsong's autographed Reagan paraphenalia will be confiscated and added to the community compost pile. That rumour of a new dime that was to bear Reagan's likeness has been changed. It will now bear Hillary Clinton's likeness-------in jogging shorts.

The good news is your new nationalized utility bill is only $10--except for a $900 excise tax added to help crack addicted women stop giving frivolously to charities and katrina victims.



jazzbass

 

[Paisley]

Olivia de Haviland

There is an article in today's Wall Street Journal about communism in Hollywood in the late 40s. It's an interview with golden era actress Olivia de Haviland (who played Melanie in Gone with the Wind), now 90 years old.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Thanks, Paisley! What does Olivia de Havilland say about it?

.

 

[Paisley]

To quote a few paragraphs from the article (link requires subscription):

One evening that summer [1946] confirmed her fears. When an anticommunist statement was suggested, the meeting [of the Independent Citizens' Committee of the Arts, Sciences and Professions] erupted in "pure bedlam," she says. Musician Artie Shaw began extolling the Soviet constitution as a standard of democracy. "He said to me, 'Have you read the Russian constitution?'" remembers Ms. de Havilland, "and I said, 'No I haven't -- and how recently have you read ours?'"

When Ms. de Havilland finally tried to introduce [Ronald] Reagan's revised [anti-communist] declaration in July, the meeting became "so heated and contentious that I thought, 'This is it.' I had fought long enough, and as hard as I could, and I resigned," she says. During the next few weeks, Reagan and others from Ms. de Havilland's group followed. She went on to start her next film and never again immersed herself in political activism the way she did during that important summer.​

 

[airfrogusmc]

Not to defend anyone but you have to remember the times. In the 1930s and into the 1940s there was allot of folks that gave up hope in capitalism because of the great depression. There were allot of movies and books that took slants towards socialism. Its a Wonderful Life (Frank Capra) and The Grapes of Wrath (Steinbeck) are just two examples. There were a great deal of Americans looking for alternatives because the American dream seemed dead in the 30s. Banks, the Stock Market and even the Government seemed to have failed. Some turned to looking into other political movements. It was before people had a realization of what twisted forms of communism really meant.

 

[jamespowers]

To quote a few paragraphs from the article (link requires subscription):

One evening that summer [1946] confirmed her fears. When an anticommunist statement was suggested, the meeting [of the Independent Citizens' Committee of the Arts, Sciences and Professions] erupted in "pure bedlam," she says. Musician Artie Shaw began extolling the Soviet constitution as a standard of democracy. "He said to me, 'Have you read the Russian constitution?'" remembers Ms. de Havilland, "and I said, 'No I haven't -- and how recently have you read ours?'"

When Ms. de Havilland finally tried to introduce [Ronald] Reagan's revised [anti-communist] declaration in July, the meeting became "so heated and contentious that I thought, 'This is it.' I had fought long enough, and as hard as I could, and I resigned," she says. During the next few weeks, Reagan and others from Ms. de Havilland's group followed. She went on to start her next film and never again immersed herself in political activism the way she did during that important summer.​

Hmmmm.... Hollywood hasn't changed in 60 years. Interesting.