The ultimative Denim Trouser Thread?

[Edward]

The best cheapo jeans from my experience sold in America are made in Mexico. Carhartt and to some minor degree Levis (if you are lucky to find some) do make items in Mexico.

My 13mwzs are labelled "made in Mexico from American Denim".

Retro helmets do seem to be rather popular, the AGV Ago being particularly nice.

Some are surprisingly expensive... I looked at eBay a while back with a half-baked notion of picking up a couple of old, used bike helmets for room decor, but it's surprising how pricey some can be. But then Lewis still charge £430 for their Superjet helmet that isn't even road legal! I can't fathom who would spend that on a lid they can't use on the road.... maybe Rocker cosplay is bigger than I thought? Or a lot of cyclists use them?

 

[CatsCan]

Since there are two parallel theads about the exact same matter I suggest, that we move this thread to the other denim thread. How do you feel about that, Kermit? Folks? Bartenders?

 

[bn1966]

Agree totally. I have come to wear them exclusively. And I am one of those, who wear theirs until they start to look good to eyes like your's and sell them to you guys..

Good posts Cats Can,

I gave up on Levi jeans due to inferior quality we were receiving in the UK and the short life span of the garments.

I went into Freddies and then discovered Pike Brothers who are my go to clothiers nowadays. I buy more products from them than anything else.

Brexit meant I was unable to make purchases since just before Christmas, now thankfully the situation has been rectified and shopping with Pike has recommenced They are doing a great line in black T shirts & vests at the moment..top quality.

 

[CatsCan]

Brexit meant I was unable to make purchases since just before Christmas, now thankfully the situation has been rectified

We have to get some things sorted on both sides of the channel, but when we have, I hope you islanders will come back.

 

[bn1966]

We have to get some things sorted on both sides of the channel, but when we have, I hope you islanders will come back.

I’m happily buying from Germany and France again, when this mess is over I’ll be back visiting Europe...no man is an Island

 

[Sonero]

Good posts Cats Can,

I gave up on Levi jeans due to inferior quality we were receiving in the UK and the short life span of the garments.

This happens all day and every day in Marlboro Country ( USA ) as well.

 

[CatsCan]

no man is an Island

Well said!

 

[Blackadder]

I can only second that. Many times I asked myself, why so many of our fellow american loungers seem to fav Wrangler in the denim threads. I believe it is helpful for many readers to understand, how the fashion market works.

There is some reasoning behind the desire to get "good" jeans in Europe. Whatever "good" means to us.
I don't think, that my analysis will be 100% correct. But I try.
There have been developments that many are unaware of. Just as an example: Converse USA ceased production, the brand name swapped over to Nike which moved production to Asia. My first asian pair was not holding up as the old US made did. I thought this was only me, maybe walking different, gaining weight... but then I learnt, that they had problems with rubber and vulcanizing. Later batches came out better.
Then Levis. I was used to wear Wrangler or Levis all my youth. But two decades ago I noticed that a Levis I had bought cracked over the knees after only three or four months. I learnt, that the european Levis were not longer produced in the same way and from the same material, and even not produced in the USA at all anymore. So different product, same brand name*. After the last of the old US cotton mills ceased production, US denim, which had always been superior to everything we could buy over here for many years, is in it's final days. So from my guess our fellow american loungers will notice changes in their Wranglers in near future. This will not happen from one day to another, but creeping.
I suppose that's they way it is as long as the earth is revolving, production will revolve around the planet in the quest for the most economic sources. I have come to totally skip cheap jeans, not because I am thinking, expensive means good. But with very cheap denim or clothing in general, chances are higher, that labor conditions for the workers are not to my liking. There are brands who are dedicated to quality denim who are not just searching for the cheapest production regions and the cheapest cotton available, but searching for the best quality and highest possible environment standards. If these start to incorporate a commitment for fair production conditions and high environmental standards and deliver long lasting end products at the same time, my denim world will be okay again. But we shall not be fooled. Some start very good and as soon as they are extremely popular and growing, they sell their brand name to bigger companies and the whole story repeats itself.

At least there are some really wonderful alternatives for us who like denim. The "denim aficionados" have discovered them. If they can be the solution for the mass marked, I have my doubt, because from their very nature, they are usually small businesses and their production is slow compared. But instead of a few huge "not so good" companies, loads of small, but better companies could make it.

At the moment, quite good jeans clothes are produced in

• Japan (from Okayama denim especially)
  
• Italy (denim from Italy and Turkey, but also more and more from Japan)
  
• Turkey (after they had huge problems and a bad reputation during the 90's and the first decade of the new century because of sick workers who suffered from lung deseases, they have improved hugely. Pike's denim is made there, but also in Japan)
• Germany (Blaumann, denim from Japan)
  
• a few single companies from China and other asian countries.
• still some brands in the USA (using old stock of US made denim, but more and more denim from Japan)

Still, there is a lot of not so good (not only for quality reasons, but labor conditions and environmental problems) coming from

• Bangladesh
• Cambodia
• India
• Sri Lanka (our yellow collar and blue collar worker's stuff is currently produced there, too)
• China and other asian countries
• Turkey

The latter must have their chances to develop their economy, and improve lives of their citizens, and we can contribute in buying form their fairer companies to show our interest in better standards by demonstrating that we are willing to pay more for better. Money makes the world go 'round.
Lists are by far not complete.

It is worth it to look closer at the things we buy. This refers to denim, too.

Cats

P.S.: I don't write off Levis* or Wrangler as of yet. Or other dinosaur brands (forgive me), although I believe in evolution

--------------------------------
*Worth to note here for all new to the matter: Levis LVC or Levis Vintage is something completely different than Levis.

AFAIK, Wrangler sold off their overseas operations many years ago to focus on producing work and cowboy rodeo clothing which is why their lineup has not changed for so many years, the same old 13MWZ, 936, 945 etc. They did move production from US to Mexico. Moving to the overseas operations, what Wrangler Europe and Wrangler Japan did are very different. Same as LVC, Wrangler Japan actually has a Wrangler Archive collection reproducing the old 11mw etc with Japanese selvedge denim. Unfortunately though for those living outside Japan, the Wrangler Japan items are not available because of the licencing. It is pretty strict too as the official Edwin shop has cancelled an order I made through a well known proxy service.
There are still brands in the US that make workwear and their jeans are solid, non-selvedge but tough.
Cone mills USA has closed but even before its demise, their supply of selvedge denim has been rather limited. Japanese mills have made up for the slack which is why you will see Gap and other American brands using Japanese selvedge denim in their premium collection. These are made in India or Bangladash with Japanese denim. These are quite affordable regular 11-13oz denim.
For those who like the heavy denim, there is the Unbranded 21oz which uses Japanese selvedge denim. They mentioned that they were made in Macau a few years back. I am not sure where they are made now.
If on the other hand, you are not into extra heavy denim, there are some Japanese Brands that produce pretty well made raw selvedge jeans at half the price of say Iron Heart. IMO Sugar Cane and Kojima Genes prices are pretty fair but then one has to keep in mind the import duties and your local sales tax.

 

[Sonero]

I don't see Samurai and L Artisan mentioned much on these forums. They are both excellent Japanese brands. A little cheaper than IH. Samurai denim reminds me of the vintage Levis 501.

 

[handymike]

The only thing I didn’t like so much on the Wranglers is the rubber patch on the back pocket, so I removed it before the initial Hot Water Soak...so far, these jeans are great! I would try the 936, but they cost double...mine are listed as made in Nicaragua.

 

[CatsCan]

Very good and useful detailed info, Blackadder!

@Sonero, I don't know if I am correct, but I think Samurai's Denims are made at the Collect Mills in Okayama, they also make the Denims for Rampuya, Japan, which in a corporation with Blue Owl Seattle produce the "Japan Blue" Jeans. I have their Monster Selvedge 16,5 oz, I thing the Lot was JB0412. It is a medium heavy but kind of slack weave, feeling very comfortable to wear. The quality in everything from the weave to the stitching, is outstanding, and they claim this to be entry level! The leather label was produced by Tanner Goods in the USA. I love these jeans. But unfortunately, they don't fit me anymore.
Look at that fantastic weave and stitching! It's details like these that I love seeing on a very good pair of jeans.

 

[Blackadder]

I don't see Samurai and L Artisan mentioned much on these forums. They are both excellent Japanese brands. A little cheaper than IH. Samurai denim reminds me of the vintage Levis 501.

There are forums dedicated to denim. You will find all kinds of brands mentioned there including Samurai and SDA.
Samurai jeans cloth is usually pretty rough and that increases the friction for quicker fading but also ripping apart.

 

[CatsCan]

Perhaps I have confused Samurai with Momotaro in my last post. But I do believe that Collect Mills in Kojima, Okayama, Japan provides the denims for both brands. Here you have the "science" of denim that was mentioned previously. There is a lot to explore. The looms used at Collect were made by Toyoda about 1924. The same company turned to automobile production in 1937 as Toyota. So the denim of the jeans I showed in my previous post was made on these old machines and then put together by skilled female workers who not only are able to make some of the most valuable kimonos you can buy today but also earn very good money. But still, just pants!

 

[Sonero]

Very good and useful detailed info, Blackadder!

@Sonero, I don't know if I am correct, but I think Samurai's Denims are made at the Collect Mills in Okayama, they also make the Denims for Rampuya, Japan, which in a corporation with Blue Owl Seattle produce the "Japan Blue" Jeans. I have their Monster Selvedge 16,5 oz, I thing the Lot was JB0412. It is a medium heavy but kind of slack weave, feeling very comfortable to wear. The quality in everything form the weave to the threads, is outstanding! The leather label was produced by Tanner Goods in the USA. I love these jeans. But unfortunately, they don't fit me anymore.
Look at that fantastic weave and threading/sewing! It's details like these that I love seeing on a very good pair of jeans.

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A fine assessment of the Samurai product. I would just like to add that there is definitely a big difference between fabrics depending on the model. I 've got one pair of very slim Samurais that have a rugged pebble feel to the fabric never experienced anywhere before. I can actually double down on that with SASHIKO. Wow what a beautiful fabric. They are known to shrink a lot so just a heads up.

 

[Sonero]

Perhaps I have confused Samurai with Momotaro in my last post.

Momotaro has the horrible habit of adding 2 white branded rings in white paint to their clothing. It's a horrible look for an otherwise decent product. Why doesn't someone tell the designer ?

 

[CatsCan]

Yeah, I never liked that white "battle stripes" design on the rear pocket on their pants, either. I suspect they mainly wanted to attract primarily the japanese customers with the allusion to the Samurais of the Edo period. Their brand name was based on the popular folklore figure Momotaro, however, who, according to the legend, hetched from a peach! This figure is extremely popular in the Okayama district and his legend known by everyone. They should only put it back into the peach when it comes to their jeans. Would that be an" impeachment"? Uhm. Probably not. Too much TV today. But the peach story is responsible for the pink coloured selvedge line. Ok. Pink selvegde line plus bold white stripes across one rear pocket - possibly too much for non-japanese.

Argh, my JB has it, too. Never realised. Honestly, not really bad at all... Ok, I take back the comment about the selvedge line. Just the white stripes thing remains.

 

[Sonero]

A double ring leather patch wouldn't be a bad idea. The way it is now its either you do war paint or you don't !

 

[Sonero]

Just a heads up for you Wrangler guys.

My new 936 came in today. They are made in >>> NICARAGUA. 100% cotton but they look like a pair of counterfeit jeans you would see at a local mercado in Latin America. I've been too several of them. The difference between these and the old made in Mexico are huge. I guess I can add Wranglers as another item not to be purchased online.

I purchased mine directly from Wrangler USA.

And they have ELASTIC in the fabric. Not 100% real denim.

 

[Blackadder]

Just a heads up for you Wrangler guys.

My new 936 came in today. They are made in >>> NICARAGUA. 100% cotton but they look like a pair of counterfeit jeans you would see at a local mercado in Latin America. I've been too several of them. The difference between these and the old made in Mexico are huge. I guess I can add Wranglers as another item not to be purchased online.

I purchased mine directly from Wrangler USA.

And they have ELASTIC in the fabric. Not 100% real denim.

Same cut, two versions
100% 14oz cotton
https://www.wrangler.com/shop/wrang...fit-jean-0936R.html?dwvar_0936R_color=0936DEN
With spandex
https://www.wrangler.com/shop/wrang...-jeans-936MAF.html?dwvar_936MAF_color=936AFPW

Even 70s Wrangler may contain spandex because the trend back then was for skin tight jeans or skin tight flare jeans. Things is spandex is actually tougher than cotton but the heavyweight 100% cotton feels more substantial and secure.

 

[Sonero]

Same cut, two versions
100% 14oz cotton
https://www.wrangler.com/shop/wrang...fit-jean-0936R.html?dwvar_0936R_color=0936DEN
With spandex
https://www.wrangler.com/shop/wrang...-jeans-936MAF.html?dwvar_936MAF_color=936AFPW

Even 70s Wrangler may contain spandex because the trend back then was for skin tight jeans or skin tight flare jeans. Things is spandex is actually tougher than cotton but the heavyweight 100% cotton feels more substantial and secure.

Interesting. Thanks for this.


I have been buying this model for maybe 2 years now and out of maybe 5 pairs this is the only one with any stretch to it. It's ok since the fit is great and I need lighter jeans for warm weather BUT the elastic creates a lot of white patches in the denim even at only 1% elastic. The Gap and Levis have the same issues.