The Type A2 Flight Jacket Identification Manual

[Dr H]

Yes (that's what I do!), but you still need enough for the polymerase to amplify anything in a reasonable number of cycles (i.e. to have confidence you're amplifying what you think you are) - in my experience, once DNA's started to degrade, it's toast. I had always imagined some of the nasties they use in tanning would destroy any DNA present.

I defer to your practical expertise, but if you're comparing two such dissimilar animals, wouldn't analysis DNA combined with MALDI-TOF-MS not do the trick? It was used very successfully on the hide clothing from Oetzi (Iceman) from the copper age.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Is there good info about the number of bidders and who failed etc? This would be interesting to read about …

Hefty profits were made by all the parties who supplied materials to make the jackets as well as the makers themselves. No wonder so many firms were eager to bid for A2 contracts and many were disappointed.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I have no doubt that the analysis is quite straightforward (as these things go). No additional bells and whistles (mass spec etc.) needed, really, I shouldn't have thought.

My only surprise is the lack of degradation. I don't doubt that DNA does survive - how could the analysis be done otherwise? - but I'm surprised it does. Some very nasty stuff in tanning pits. I first heard about this from Alan Eardley a few years ago, and I was surprised then. I'm still surprised!! (but not doubtful, if that makes sense.)

I defer to your practical expertise, but if you're comparing two such dissimilar animals, wouldn't analysis DNA combined with MALDI-TOF-MS not do the trick? It was used very successfully on the hide clothing from Oetzi (Iceman) from the copper age.

 

[aswatland]

Is there good info about the number of bidders and who failed etc? This would be interesting to read about …

Gary mentions that there was a large number of unsuccessful potential contractors on p.2 but does not list them.

 

[Dr H]

I have no doubt that the analysis is quite straightforward (as these things go). No additional bells and whistles (mass spec etc.) needed, really, I shouldn't have thought.

My only surprise is the lack of degradation. I don't doubt that DNA does survive - how could the analysis be done otherwise? - but I'm surprised it does. Some very nasty stuff in tanning pits. I first heard about this from Alan Eardley a few years ago, and I was surprised then. I'm still surprised!! (but not doubtful, if that makes sense.)

No , that makes sense - particularly where chromium compounds are involved. Not a trade I'd relish...tanners earn their salt.

 

[rocketeer]

I wonder if we all DNA tested our jackets, A2s and civvy's, if we could discover the fate of Shergar?
Would a thoroughbred race horse produce a better quality hide than an old nag? How about the durability of a jacket made from a Shire, a good work horse that one so may make a tough work jacket such as Aero's Teamster.
Now who would require a premium hide for a special customer, may be a rival race horse owner, possibly the Sheik of Araby? Who would make that jacket, Gary? Ken? John? Or Stuart？
Jay Tee

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Horses head on the pillow and new jacket made from his hide hanging in the closet. The God(awful)father 6!

 

[rocketeer]

Horses head on the pillow and new jacket made from his hide hanging in the closet. The God(awful)father 6!

You have a jacket made form THAT horse? WoW

I'm off to the school science laboratory with one of the arms from my Lucky 7 Seven WWII jacket to get it DNA tested. I'm secretly hoping it's Seabiscuit, or at least a close relative.
Johnny(definitely not Strabbler)

 

[B-24J]

Yes it's one of his Elite Unit 23rd FTR Group Roughwear A2s.

The Eastman 23RD FTR GRP jacket that Gary Eastman is wearing has great leather work on the patches. Their web site has more photos of the jacket.

I often hear about the Italian made patches for the 15th Air Force, but has anyone in England tracked down the patch makers to the 8th Air Force? I'm sure that many if not all the painted images on the A-2s were done by USAAF personnel, but surely some of the leather patches were of English manufacture.

John

 

[3onaMatch]

What still baffles me is with all this knowledge and the many examples to work from, why can't Eastman make a more faithful reproduction? You'd think their stuff would be dead-on accurate.

 

[majormajor]

What still baffles me is with all this knowledge and the many examples to work from, why can't Eastman make a more faithful reproduction? You'd think their stuff would be dead-on accurate.

So tell me, in detail, referencing original jackets, what specific aspect of ELC jackets you have a problem with??

 

[3onaMatch]

Oh, god. You again?

 

[majormajor]

Oh, god. You again?

Oh, god. You again?
Oh, god. You again?
Oh, god. You again?

:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[aswatland]

ELC make high quality repros. They are not quite as accurate a Good Wears. The pockets on ELC jackets are usually placed a little higher than on most originals. There are other fine details on some of their original maker jackets that deviate from originals, such as the collar shape on the Star and RWs, the use of green thread on the RW 1401-P and the size of the pockets on some contracts.

 

[majormajor]

ELC make high quality repros. They are not quite as accurate a Good Wears. The pockets on ELC jackets are usually placed a little higher than on most originals. There are other fine details on some of their original maker jackets that deviate from originals, such as the collar shape on the Star and RWs, the use of green thread on the RW 1401-P and the size of the pockets on some contracts.

Thanks for the info, Andrew. Always on the nail, as ever.

My last ELC was the "warhorse" Monarch. Very pleased with it

 

[Dr H]

Back on topic - just starting to read my copy. Very impressive, extensively researched, lavishly illustrated and well worth the money.

 

[aswatland]

I'm glad you are enjoying it Ian.

 

[Dr H]

Huge amount of primary info - must have taken quite an effort to research, Andrew.
Fascinating to see all the contracts alongside each other and pick out the subtleties.
Very interested to read of the A-1 manufacturers too. No mention of Mirelli Brothers; an oversight?

 

[Persimmon]

Huge amount of primary info - must have taken quite an effort to research, Andrew.
Fascinating to see all the contracts alongside each other and pick out the subtleties.
Very interested to read of the A-1 manufacturers too. No mention of Mirelli Brothers; an oversight?

We seek him here, we seek him there
Those Fedoras seek him everywhere !
Is he in heaven? Or is he in hell ?
That demmed Elusive Mirelli Brother ?"

 

[Dr H]

We seek him here, we seek him there
Those Fedoras seek him everywhere !
Is he in heaven? Or is he in hell ?
That demmed Elusive Mirelli Brother ?"

...and his converted, zip-fronted original A-1... ;-)