The Streetcar/Trolley/Tram/Electric Railway Thread

[Story]

Taking the Subway: Black and white images reveal the early days underground in New York from the opening ceremony to war-time travel and plush 1930s interiors

Tons of photos at: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...days-New-York-Citys-subway.html#ixzz1lAkOE7Bv

 

[Fading Fast]

Last week, I was in Brooklyn's Red Hook section and stopped into the Fairway Market. There is a whole lot of Golden Era architecture and atmosphere still extant in Red Hook with very little gentrification making it feel overly done; thus, it is not populated by people way too pleased with themselves for living amidst old warehouses, factories, homes, etc. that they have perfectly restored and filled with businesses devoted to every "artisanal" fad - beer, bacon, cheese, coffee, et al. - that takes a staple and steroids it up to an supposed art form.

It appears that Red Hook hasn't been gentrified because, without easy subway access, there is no reasonable way to commute into Manhattan (one must be familiar with the crush of traffic, over-taxed bridges and tunnels and general roadway chaos of New York City to understand why Red Hook can be only eleven miles from Manhattan, but without a close subway line, one can't reasonably commute into Manhattan).

But the reason for this post on this thread is to share the photos I took of this streetcar sitting out back of the Fairway Market. I love old trains and streetcars, but while I have a working knowledge of old trains, my streetcar knowledge is very limited; hence, it would be great if someone knows anything about this streetcar and can share. Also, it is a shame as it the streetcar deteriorating and, parked next to salt water as it is, will continue to do so.

Enjoy the photos

 

[Jack Patch]

I was at the Kenosha public museum today. They have an old electric trolly that still makes the rounds. Didn't get a pic though.

 

[Swing Motorman]

I know very little of the Red Hook trolley project, only anecdotes gathered from fellow streetcar preservationists, and some online sources.

There's a loop of track there, longer than you might think, with stored streetcars mostly of Boston heritage. They're late-model (1949-1951 or so) PCC cars (the wide "picture windows" are the giveaway), with at least one ex-Twin Cities Rapid Transit car from Minneapolis thrown in (look at the very back of the second, upside-down photo, it's the yellowish car with narrower windows). Reportedly, some of the cars were operable in Red Hook, but according to one website, the streetcars' 600V DC power supply for the planned-for overhead wires could only power half a PCC at a time, so aside from shop tests, nothing ran. The group working on this had grand plans and a decent chance to realize them, but some mix of factors that I wouldn't dare guess at doomed the operation, and there sit the dreams of the volunteers who worked so hard for years.

Sadly, Red Hook is another chapter in New Jersey and NYC's tale as the graveyard of transportation historical societies-- where dedicated folks' dreams go to die. Just in the last few years, a number of rail preservation projects failed, got destroyed by foolish local politicians, or declared every good intention to establish themselves... and never have. I keep hoping something good will surface there in a stable museum environment, but not much has. But good things do come out of NJ as far as trolley preservation is concerned... this ex-Twin Cities, later Newark, NJ car came out of NJ to Pennsylvania, where we love it, run it, and keep it looking swell!

 

[Fading Fast]

I know very little of the Red Hook trolley project, only anecdotes gathered from fellow streetcar preservationists, and some online sources.

There's a loop of track there, longer than you might think, with stored streetcars mostly of Boston heritage. They're late-model (1949-1951 or so) PCC cars (the wide "picture windows" are the giveaway), with at least one ex-Twin Cities Rapid Transit car from Minneapolis thrown in (look at the very back of the second, upside-down photo, it's the yellowish car with narrower windows). Reportedly, some of the cars were operable in Red Hook, but according to one website, the streetcars' 600V DC power supply for the planned-for overhead wires could only power half a PCC at a time, so aside from shop tests, nothing ran. The group working on this had grand plans and a decent chance to realize them, but some mix of factors that I wouldn't dare guess at doomed the operation, and there sit the dreams of the volunteers who worked so hard for years.

Sadly, Red Hook is another chapter in New Jersey and NYC's tale as the graveyard of transportation historical societies-- where dedicated folks' dreams go to die. Just in the last few years, a number of rail preservation projects failed, got destroyed by foolish local politicians, or declared every good intention to establish themselves... and never have. I keep hoping something good will surface there in a stable museum environment, but not much has. But good things do come out of NJ as far as trolley preservation is concerned... this ex-Twin Cities, later Newark, NJ car came out of NJ to Pennsylvania, where we love it, run it, and keep it looking swell!

Thank you - great (if dispiriting) information. Sorry about the upside picture, but I have no idea why that happened as I handled it in the exact same way as the one that came out right side up.

 

[fashion frank]

Looking at this thread reminded me that my Pipe Major's ( I play in a pipe and drum band) husband's father used to work for the streetcar company here in Providence until they got rid of the system in the 1960's.

One night while over the Pipe Major's house for a bagpipe music lesson I remarked that I could still spot the old streetcar line poles in different parts of the city that they just left there and how you could still see the original lines strung from pole to pole .
Her husband then went upstairs and then came back down with a photo album loaded with pictures of the cars and what have you.
I then realized that once more something really cool from the past was gone for good and that I had missed out on that .

It's kinda funny now a days because the city has these " trolley car's " that are in reality propane powered vehicles decked out to look like a streetcar without the wires of course and with tires.

I heard that as of late they were considering trying to bring back the system but I don't know how they would do that because the street cars used to run in the middle of the road and traffic space for cars on the left and right of the tracks in the middle , but cars are so much wider than in the past that I don't know how they would be able to pull it off.


All the Best ,Fashion Frank

 

[p51]

Seattle used to have trollies along the waterfront, but the city had to have a sculpture garden where the trolley barn stood, so that got torn down and the trolleys are now stroed somewhere. I just drove down along the waterfront a couple of weeks ago and the tracks are now gone.

The trollies in San Francisco will have the city where they came from on painted on their sides which I think is neat.

My wife and I did a 3-day SF trip a couple of years ago and we both had a blast riding the trollies, even took one up the hill to the Mint area and back. I kept trying to find the Pacific Electric-painted PCC car but we never were able to catch it when we were looking for a ride.

 

[Stanley Doble]

"I heard that as of late they were considering trying to bring back the system but I don't know how they would do that because the street cars used to run in the middle of the road and traffic space for cars on the left and right of the tracks in the middle , but cars are so much wider than in the past that I don't know how they would be able to pull it off."

They should consider trolley buses, electric buses that use the trolley wires. Eliminates the need for rail tracks, and the nuisance. But they are economical to buy and run, and pollution free.

I don't know what kind of cars you have, but all the cars I see are smaller and narrower than the typical car of the sixties, seventies or eighties.

 

[David Conwill]

One advantage to true light rail, though, is the psychological effect of the rails on ridership. Bus routes aren't painted on the ground, but you can always see the rails. It's a gentle reminder that you can ride and tends to increase ridership versus buses (trolley or free-range).

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but the groundbreaking for the return of streetcars to Woodward Avenue in Detroit is this fall. I'd really like to attend if I can get away.

 

[Fading Fast]

One advantage to true light rail, though, is the psychological effect of the rails on ridership. Bus routes aren't painted on the ground, but you can always see the rails. It's a gentle reminder that you can ride and tends to increase ridership versus buses (trolley or free-range).

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but the groundbreaking for the return of streetcars to Woodward Avenue in Detroit is this fall. I'd really like to attend if I can get away.

I'd echo your comments on the psychological benefits of rail. In Jersey City (where I go on business a few times a year), it has a new light rail system that captures people's attention. I have been with different people on those trips, and almost everyone asks about the light rails when we walk over the tracks and most get excited when we see the train go by. Nobody get's excited about a bus line. That said, the best vibe comes from a trolley as the overhead power source seems to increase the visual frisson.

 

[Stanley Doble]

What about the cost? It is hard to justify the higher cost of light rail when it offers no advantage over rubber tired buses. I suspect if rubber tires had been invented 80 years sooner, railroads would never have been invented.

With today's battery developments it is possible to build electric buses that can travel independent of the overhead wires. I don't know if it would be a good idea to do away with them entirely or to make buses that can go a few miles independently, but get their charge off the overhead wires most of the time.

 

[David Conwill]

Buses, electric or not, will never change commuting habits the way rail can. Cost is the eternal bugaboo raised by opponents of passenger rail (light or heavy).

Why is rail expected to be self sustaining when streets and airports are not? The cost is recouped in more than just fares - the reduced congestion that comes with increased ridership is a benefit as well. To say nothing of noise and exhaust fumes.

Also, don't forget the increased tax base that comes from bringing people downtown - another source of revenue to offset the cost of the infrastructure.

 

[fashion frank]

I don't know what kind of cars you have, but all the cars I see are smaller and narrower than the typical car of the sixties, seventies or eighties.

What I should have stated was that now the streets that the trolleys used to run on allow for car parking on both sides of the street PLUS two way traffic and then the trolley tracks would have to be in the middle of the street making it almost impossible and impassable for a trolly to run.

All the Best ,Fashion Frank

 

[Stanley Doble]

"Why is rail expected to be self sustaining when streets and airports are not? "

Are you kidding? Autos and trucks are not only "self sustaining" they pay heavy taxes as well. Same with airports.

Public transit should be self sustaining, or as close to it as can be managed. Taxpayers' pockets are not infinitely deep.

As Margaret Thatcher put it, socialism only works until you run out of other peoples' money.

 

[David Conwill]

I didn't say "autos and trucks". I said ROADS. Roads are not free, they are paid for by you an I as a subsidy to the trucking industry and drivers.

And few, if any, airports actually turn a profit. They are kept open with tax money.

 

[Stanley Doble]

I am heartily in favor of mass transit. I am not a big fan of wasting money. There should be some way to have a clean, efficient transit system at affordable cost.

With the latest advances in batteries and electric vehicles, electric buses and delivery trucks may soon be competitive with gas and diesel for the first time in 100 years.

Light rail multiplies the cost without giving any commensurate advantage, in most cases.

 

[Stanley Doble]

If you drive a car you pay road taxes on gasoline or diesel fuel, an annual license fee, possibly sales taxes when you buy a vehicle and many other taxes.

The fuel tax alone, which was supposed to go to road and highway building, has been diverted to general revenues for years.

As far as subsidizing trucks goes, in most localities diesel is taxed at double the rate of gasoline and trucks pay far higher license fees.

Motorists have paid for the streets and highways many times over.

What it comes down to is, there is no source of infinite money. We live on a planet of finite resources. To say you want the government to build something regardless of cost, and regardless of whether it is any use or not, just isn't good enough anymore.

 

[David Conwill]

regardless of cost, and regardless of whether it is any use or not

Those are your words, not mine. Had we not torn out that infrastructure to begin with, I think you would see huge ridership numbers these days. Cost is certainly a factor, but mass, electrified transit must sell itself and overhead wires aren't enough. It must have rails as well.

And it's certainly useful, it's just not currently available in most areas.

Finally, your numbers may be true for Coburg, but they aren't true here in Michigan. We are a crazily truck-friendly state and our roads show it. Did you know the maximum fine here for an overweight truck is $50? And it goes to libraries, not to roads.

Tell me that's not a trucking subsidy.

 

[Stanley Doble]

There are cities that never tore out their infrastructure. Toronto being one. It has an excellent streetcar system and a subway too. Also buses. They all work together to form one transportation system.

The street cars are not cheaper than buses. The system must be subsidized by the taxpayers of Toronto and of the province of Ontario. Even though 90% of Ontario's taxpayers never get the chance to use it.

I'm not against streetcars, trains or trolleys. If they are the best solution to a problem let's use them. But let's see the facts and figures before we make up our minds.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Is there no gasoline tax or diesel fuel tax in Michigan? Do you not pay for license plates? Is there no tax on the purchase of a car? No taxes at all on the ownership and use of a motor vehicle?