The Spanish Civil War

[Salv]

And interviews in the Guardian from a few years ago with many of the then surviving British International Brigaders here

 

[Sierra Charriba]

Some photos of members of Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Almost all are americans, but they are canadians and cubans, also. You can know very well the history of the americans in SCW read "The odissey of Abraham Lincoln Brigade" by Peter Carrol. Sure, a piece of USA history that few people knows. I recommend you, also, "Men in battle", by Alvah Bessie, the scripwriter of "Objetive, Burma!"

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m308/sierracharriba/11_0744s.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m308/sierracharriba/11_0741s.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m308/sierracharriba/11_0753s.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m308/sierracharriba/11_0707s.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m308/sierracharriba/11_0705s.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m308/sierracharriba/11_0711s.jpg

 

[Lincsong]

Hello, Linc
Hitch- hicker was much more common in 60's and 70's than now. And much more safe in the mind of many people. Special permission was no necessary.Now, is almost impossible to see hitch-hickers in spanish roads.

Yes, some clergy were against Franco in 70's. Where are they now? Nobody knows...
The Church is against the socialist government, in a new "crusade" (fortunately, this time without guns). They are the Bad Men in Black.

Regards

Sierra;
Obviously the Vatican will oppose Rodriguez-Zapetero on homosexual marriage, in what other issues is the Church opposing the socialists? When this group came to power didn't Rodriguez say that they were going to remake Spanish Culture?; as in eradicate "machismo" in Spanish society? I read that in Madrid there are monthly "ironing protests" where socialists men take to the streets and iron clothes?

Also how easy is it to obtain a pistol or rifle in Spain? Was it easier under the previous Prime Minister? Did Rodriquez-Zapetero start a confiscation of guns?

 

[Sierra Charriba]

Now the Church is completely opposed to educational laws of Zapatero gevernment. They want the Religion be a subjet with the same academic valour than Science or Grammary. It's something hard to believe in a modern and democratic country, but really, the politics of Zapatero about the Church is the same that any liberal country did in XIX and XX centuries. It seems incredible, but is true.

You are joking with the "ironing protests", don't you? Really someone thinks that in USA?lol

The politics about firearms are in Spain exactly the same from 1992. Is hard to get legally a pistol, but Spain is a country with many hunters and there's a lot of legal hunter rifles and shotguns. We have not problems in the "Bowling for Columbine", except one case or two each 40 years.

 

[Lincsong]

Now the Church is completely opposed to educational laws of Zapatero gevernment. They want the Religion be a subjet with the same academic valour than Science or Grammary. It's something hard to believe in a modern and democratic country, but really, the politics of Zapatero about the Church is the same that any liberal country did in XIX and XX centuries. It seems incredible, but is true.

You are joking with the "ironing protests", don't you? Really someone thinks that in USA?lol

The politics about firearms are in Spain exactly the same from 1992. Is hard to get legally a pistol, but Spain is a country with many hunters and there's a lot of legal hunter rifles and shotguns. We have not problems in the "Bowling for Columbine", except one case or two each 40 years.

I'm not joking about the "ironing protests"lol lol I wish I were joking, but I read it, darn I wish I remember which magazine. Must of been Newsweek or Time. But the magazine actually showed men on the sidewalk ironing clothes to show their feminine side. I'm glad that someone denies it. A pox on the press for publishing such lies!lol This Zapatero seems a little whishy washy. Anyway, back to El Caudillo I read that he also was a hunter and that whenever he went hunting or fishing he always came back with the biggest trophy. (I wonder why? )

"Bowling for Columbine" is a false lie. Don't believe such garbage.

 

[Salv]

I'm not joking about the "ironing protests"lol lol I wish I were joking, but I read it, darn I wish I remember which magazine. Must of been Newsweek or Time. But the magazine actually showed men on the sidewalk ironing clothes to show their feminine side. I'm glad that someone denies it.

What date was it? April 1st? A google search for madrid ironing protest or spain ironing protest didn't turn up anything - it may have been a joke.

"Bowling for Columbine" is a false lie. Don't believe such garbage.

A "false lie" - does that mean it's true?

 

[Salv]

Nationalist gains in 1936 and the siege of The Alcazar.

Although the rebellion had failed in Toledo the rebels had managed to retreat to the Alcazar, a heavily fortified castle used as a military academy and built on a hill overlooking the city. Approximately 1,000 people (Falangists, Civil Guards and other right wingers) took shelter in the Alcazar on July 21st, led by Colonel Moscard??, the head of the army's school of physical education. Moscard?? only expected to have to hold out for a few days until the rebels reached Toledo, but the seige would last for 70 days. The Republicans surounded the Alcazar and proceeded to blast it with artillery fire, but the walls were so thick this had no affect whatsoever. The rebels had made a daring raid on a local munitions factory and managed to secure 700,000 rounds of ammunition, but they were short of food and medicine. Another succesful raid bagged several sacks of flour that had been stored in the basement of a bank near the castle, and horses that had been brought into the castle were slaughtered for their meat.

Meanwhile, on 2nd August, the rebels, in the form of Foreign Legion troops assisted by Moroccan regulares, headed northwards from Seville towards Madrid. They met little opposition and took M?©rida on their way to Madrid, thereby cutting off the Republicans in Badajoz. On 14th August Badajoz also fell to the rebels, and the northern and southern sections of rebel held territory were joined. In Badajoz itself the rebels herded thousands of people into the bullring and over the next few weeks took them out a few dozen at a time and executed them. Female Republicans were gang-raped before being executed.

The advance towards Madrid continued. Meanwhile in the Basque country the rebels took the city of Ir??n on 5th September. On 13th September San Sebastian surrendered and the rebels moved on towards the Basque capital, Bilbao. The offensive stalled over the winter as the Basques organised themselves into a defensive army.

The drive towards Madrid was diverted, on Franco's orders, to Toledo to allow the Foreign Legion and the Moroccans to relieve the Alcazar. The Republicans had brought in miners from Asturias to tunnel under the walls of the castle. Once the tunnelling was completed explosives were detonated on 18th September, which brought down the southwest tower allowing some Republican troops to get into the castle, but the defenders managed to fight them off. More tunnels were built and a further explosion on 27th September allowed more attackers to get in, but again the defenders held them off. The following day the rebel army arrived and took the city, massacring the Republicans on their way to the Alcazar. The 70 day seige was over.

The delay allowed the Republic to build up its defences around Madrid, thereby bringing to an end any Nationalist hope of taking the city quickly, and thus ending the war. Relieving the seige of the Alcazar was a tactical error, but it gave Franco enormous political clout and was a huge morale booster for the Nationalist cause.

The Nationalists finally reached the outskirts of Madrid in early November, but had carried out aerial bombing raids on the civilian population in late October, killing 16 and wounding 60. The bombings were carried out by the newly formed Condor Legion, using Junkers 52s. Nationalist troops advanced quickly towards the city, overcoming Republican defenses and taking up positions in a line starting from the suburbs immediately south of the city and running north-west along the Manzanares River, with a salient into the University City. After these first successful attacks the Nationalists believed they would take the city within a week, but the siege would continue almost until the end of the war in 1939. There are plenty of photos of the battle for Madrid here with a detailed diary of day-to-day events in November. The siege of Madrid would be the baptism of fire for the International Brigades who joined the fighting on 8th November.

 

[nightandthecity]

I'm not joking about the "ironing protests"lol lol I wish I were joking, but I read it, darn I wish I remember which magazine. Must of been Newsweek or Time. But the magazine actually showed men on the sidewalk ironing clothes to show their feminine side.

ah well, it seems there's plenty of men here in the Fedora Lounge "in touch with their feminine side".....

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=9587&highlight=iron

SALV - thanks for the great poster links. I'm loathe to part with Django so soon but I think I might feel an avatar change coming on....

SIERRA - those are great Lincoln battalion pictures. I notice that in the third one the guy wears one of those caps that BT was asking about. I'm not a huge fan of military hats but those are rather tasty - I might have to get one.

Off to a bluegrass festival and a weekend in the sun. Got to iron my pants first though. See ya'll Monday.

 

[Roger]

I beleive it was in Time that mentioned the ironing protests. I'll try to find the date and issue. As someone who's family fled Portuguese fascism in 1960's I can relate to Sierra's viewpoint.

 

[dr greg]

catchup

I hitchhiked through Spain in early 74 actually so Franco's hand was slipping off the tiller by that stage, but there was still the palpable menace of a police state, and as I said the unrepaired walls with bullet holes is something I vividly remember. I've had an interest in the SCW since childhood but don't really know why, and I love Barcelona, it's practically my favourite city after Sydney. I also read recently but can't recall where about the famous incident at the Alcazar where the Nationalist General tells his hostage son on the phone that he will not surrender and to "die for Spain". apparently this was all bull and the son is still alive...great story about propaganda which has counterparts today...remember the Kuwait babies.

 

[Robert Conway]

Robert Capa, the legendary war photographer who took part in the D-Day landings, made his name during the Spanish Civil War.

See his work from this conflict here:

http://tinyurl.com/erel9

Among the photos he took during the campaign is this extremely famous one:

http://tinyurl.com/5by8a

 

[Salv]

...I also read recently but can't recall where about the famous incident at the Alcazar where the Nationalist General tells his hostage son on the phone that he will not surrender and to "die for Spain". apparently this was all bull and the son is still alive...great story about propaganda which has counterparts today...remember the Kuwait babies.

According to Anthony Beevor's research (he notes two different published versions of the same story) the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Nationalist propaganda claimed the son was shot immediately, but it seems he was kept in prison for another month and shot in retaliation for an air raid. Of course the Nationalists never mentioned the 100 Republican hostages that had been taken into the Alcazar and were never seen alive again.

 

[Salv]

Robert Capa, the legendary war photographer who took part in the D-Day landings, made his name during the Spanish Civil War.

See his work from this conflict here:

http://tinyurl.com/erel9

Among the photos he took during the campaign is this extremely famous one:

http://tinyurl.com/5by8a

Thanks very much for that first link - I'd only ever seen a few of Capa's SCW photos and never thought to check Magnum for the rest.

 

[Lincsong]

Those are excellent links Conway.

 

[Lena_Horne]

I'd hate to crash the thread, but I was so glad I stumbled upon this today. The Spanish Civil War has been an amazing distraction for me over the past month, specifically the plight of the refugees streaming into France and Britain:

While looking it up on Google, I came across this site: http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/speccoll/swphotojournalism/index.html

"THOUSANDS FLEE TO SAFETY FROM BLAZING IRUN. -- With the few belongings they managed to take with them, strewn on the HENDAYE PLAGE, FRANCE, refugees from IRUN watch the town blazing with its shroud of smoke and gun fire. The kiddies in the foreground are blissfully ignorant of the fact that they are homeless and destitute and spend the time making sand castles on the safe French beach, last night," Hendaye Plage, September 1936:

SPANISH REFUGEES IN FRANCE. -- Studies of refugees from Government Spain photographed at the French border after flight from Barcelona into France, January 1939

L_H

 

[Lincsong]

Excellent photos Lena, and it is always a pleasure to have you join our discussion. Not a "crashing" at all.

 

[Lena_Horne]

Excellent photos Lena, and it is always a pleasure to have you join our discussion. Not a "crashing" at all.

Thank you very much. I only wish I could get more ground intensive war coverage today. There's nothing like photojournalism of the still variety, and Life Magazine no longer wants to approach such subjects. Alas, that is a lamentation for another day.

L_H

 

[Salv]

I'd hate to crash the thread, but I was so glad I stumbled upon this today. The Spanish Civil War has been an amazing distraction for me over the past month, specifically the plight of the refugees streaming into France and Britain:

While looking it up on Google, I came across this site: http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/speccoll/swphotojournalism/index.html
...
L_H

Crash away - it's not a private party, and everyone's welcome. Especially if they provide a link like yours.

If you're interested in the Republican refugees I linked to a book called Only For Three Months earlier in the thread, and I can heartily recommend it if you can get hold of it. It tells the story of the 4000 Basque child refugees who came to Britain - most of them returned home eventually, but 450 stayed on in Britain. There are some photos of some of the children on that photo journalism site:

 

[Lena_Horne]

Thank you very much for the encouragement. After the one above of the homes in Irun burning, this was my second favorite photo. This same girl is in the second photograph I posted up there:

"Safe in France, staggering across the frontier carrying all that they could salvage from their Catalonian homes, these are some of the thousands driven out of Spain by Franco's Barcelona victory. The refugees are...well shod, often smartly dressed, they have about them still, in flight, an air of some prosperity -- including the types pictured on the right -- but that make their plight no less touching."

L_H

 

[Salv]

The Red Terror

Atrocities were committed by both sides in the Spanish Civil War, and with the large numbers of foreign journalists moving around both Republican and Nationalist zones these atrocities were quickly brought to the attention of a worldwide audience. At the time the Nationalists claimed that half a million Spaniards had been executed in the Republican-held zone, and by the end of the war were still claiming 55,000 murders - a figure that was still in excess of now accepted true figure of 38,000.

The earliest, and most memorable, atrocities commited by Republicans were those against the clergy. To the outside world, which simply believed that Spain as a whole was a deeply religious country, these murders were shocking and made no sense. The reality was that the anti-clericalism of the 19th Century had never disappeared, and there were many in Spain - especially the anarchists - who had grown to hate the Catholic church and all it stood for. They saw it as yet another tool designed to keep the peasants - the "slave stock" - docile and frightened. That churches were ransacked and burned was hardly surprising.

The Nationalists claimed during the war that 20,000 priests had been murdered, but after the war they lowered that figure considerably to 7,937 religious persons. The accepted figures today are 4,184 priests, 2,365 members of other orders and 283 nuns. There were stories of nuns being raped before being murdered - and these stories are still being spread today - but in 1946 the Nationalists published a detailed list of Republican crimes which offered no evidence of such rapes and hinted at only one such incident.

While it's extremely unlikely that any nuns were raped it's true that many priests suffered horrifically before dying, particularly in Arag??n, Catalonia and Valencia. Priests were burned alive in their churches, and some were buried alive after being made to dig their own graves. This was by no means a universal policy: in the Basque country - remember, they were proudly Catholic - the church was untouched; in many rural areas the priests were usually as poor and ill-educated as their parishioners, and those who were known to care for the peasants were left alone.

After the clergy Republican targets for summary execution in the early days of the war were rebel generals and their followers, and then the traditional class enemies: landowners, factory owners, political bosses, learned professionals and shopkeepers. However, in the same way that caring priests were left alone, lawyers and shopkeepers who had shown sympathy for the peasants were safe.

Those involved with the uprising were usually dealt with by 'commissions of investigation' - usually known by the Russian term checa. These were designed to give a veneer of legality to the executions, but all those 'tried' by a checa were shot. Those rebels that didn't go before a checa were just shot, usually by the anarchists who couldn't be bothered to go through the trouble of a trial which would lead to the same result. Names were found in the official records of whatever organisation they belonged to, although some were denounced by servants, debtors and enemies.

In Madrid the worst mass killing took place during the night of 22-23 August, following an air raid and reports of the massacre by the Nationalists in Badajoz. Militiamen and civilians marched on the Model Prison after rumours spread of a riot by Falangist prisoners. 30 of the prisoners - out of a total of 2,000 - were dragged out and shot.

In Barcelona the main targets were the industrialists who had used gunmen against union leaders in the 1920s, and the gunmen themselves. The captured rebel army officers who were being held on a prison ship were dragged out and shot by militiamen. There was also some settling of old scores, but these were completely against the spirit of the new controllers of Barcelona. The CNT/FAI promised to execute any of their members who killed for personal motives, a threat which was carried out several times. Anarchists who took revenge on police spies from the time of Primo de Rivera's dictatorship were tried and executed by their comrades in the FAI.

Most of the anti-Nationalist violence occurred in the first few weeks of the uprising, but executions were carried out almost until the end of the war. What was significant was that a few months after the start of the war the Republican government took steps to control the violence and to re-establish law and order. There was no general Republican policy of executions and indeed many of the leaders of the various parties made efforts to save people from execution. Things were very different in the Nationalist held zone as I'll explain later.

In total the number of victims of the Red Terror amounted to 38,000 people, 8,815 of whom were killed in Madrid and 8,352 in Catalonia during the first months of the war. The majority of Republicans were sickened by this slaughter, with the anarchist intellectual Federica Montsen referring to a 'a lust for blood inconceivable in honest men before.'

Republican atrocities against Nationalist sympathisers were used as justification by British conservatives, who had no sympathy for any even vaguely left-wing party or coalition, for non-intervention. This could only harm the Republic, but while Republican executions were greeted with such distaste Nationalist executions in the cities they conquered - Badajoz and Toledo for example - were glossed over. It wasn't until the Nationalists, in the shape of the Condor Legion, bombed Guernica in April 1937 that worldwide public sympathy started to turn towards the Republic.