The Recession and Layoffs Thread

[Patrick Murtha]

I am not trying to pick a fight with anybody, I just do not buy the fact that you are victim of some upper class plot.

But no one said that. You way of thinking cuts out social and economic conditions entirely in favor of everything being rooted in individual attitudes. I've encountered this belief system before; can't say as I think much of it. Next thing you know, you'll be telling us all to read The Secret...

 

[Miss Neecerie]

woulda coulda shoulda....

none of this is actually giving that 'unless I have walked a mile in someone elses shoes' benefit of the doubt that we all should have for our fellow human beings.

all if it says -if- I were in your situation....when we are -not- in the others situation....so its all pretty pointless to say 'I could survive' or 'people are not poor'.....

 

[Decodence]

I don't buy the impossible practice of "predatory lending". People are responsible for reading, signing, and then following through on what they agreed to. Just because people are greedy or ignorant doesn't make them victims. It makes them stupid, and they deserve to reap what they sowed.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I don't buy the impossible practice of "predatory lending". People are responsible for reading, signing, and then following through on what they agreed to. Just because people are greedy or ignorant doesn't make them victims. It makes them stupid, and they deserve to reap what they sowed.

Absolutely. When someone signs, they need to read the fine print. But there are many lenders that cut corners and did some creative packaging they should not have to allow those loans to take place. Because the banks loaned so much money to people who could not afford them beyond some initial payments, I'm watching as it starts to unravel and affect the entire economy. Even working slobs like me who chose to rent and save for a down payment.

 

[skyvue]

I don't buy the impossible practice of "predatory lending". People are responsible for reading, signing, and then following through on what they agreed to. Just because people are greedy or ignorant doesn't make them victims. It makes them stupid, and they deserve to reap what they sowed.

So, individuals must be held to account for their actions, but not corporations?

Gotcha.

Funny, but you left out of your little screed that previously stated and affirmed fact that the majority of personal bankruptcies are a result of a catastrophic illness.

Here's hoping it's something other than such an illness or a long spell of un- (or under-)employment that one day rids you of what comes off in this discussion (I admittedly do not know you at all) as a severe lack of empathy.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Furthermore, because the banks were so generous with their funds, it allowed the housing market to artificially inflate in "value." Again, slobs like me got priced out of the market, because I choose to live within my means. So more people took out more insane loans and on it went until now.

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_v...nel=/sections/60minutes/videoplayer3415.shtml

 

[Patrick Murtha]

I don't buy the impossible practice of "predatory lending". People are responsible for reading, signing, and then following through on what they agreed to. Just because people are greedy or ignorant doesn't make them victims. It makes them stupid, and they deserve to reap what they sowed.

Be very careful of your karma here...

By this analysis, there must be a lot of stupid people out there; and frankly, there probably are, me included (although I've never gone to a payday loan store, knock wood). Credit cards and store charge cards are frequently pretty predatory in their rates, too. And the hidden fees that banks are charging these days for late payments, overdrafts, etc., are a real downer for many.

But let's be real about this, too. The entire weight of the American commercial system in 2008 pushes people to take advantage of all this stuff. Should they resist? It might be a good idea. Is there any support system in place to help them resist? Not much of one. The culture is completely stacked against consumers resisting temptation (and if they all did, the American economy would fall apart on the spot). Any way of thinking that supposes that many people, including smart ones, have that kind of backbone, is sociologically uninformed.

Also, one should keep in mind a basic point made in Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed: for the poor, little economic setbacks and unexpected expenses are often major crises. The brakes on your or my car go, we go pay the $500 to have them fixed. What about the poor guy who doesn't have the $500 but needs the car to get to work to make any money? Those are users of payday loan services.

 

[dhermann1]

The Wall Street Journal of last Thursday had a front page article about a 2 brothers that invested with a major Wall Street firm, and told them not to invest it in shakey securities. Guess what? The investment firm lied to them and invested their cash in unsecured garbage. That's part of the problem. It's very hard to catch up with some of the snakey things these people have done. This is why there are complaints that proper regulation has not been happening for a good long while (i.e. not merely the current fun to beat up on administration.) It's really scarey what's going on nowadays.

 

[jgilbert]

But no one said that. You way of thinking cuts out social and economic conditions entirely in favor of everything being rooted in individual attitudes. I've encountered this belief system before; can't say as I think much of it. Next thing you know, you'll be telling us all to read The Secret...

Secret? I have no idea here. However, your attitude is everything.

 

[Decodence]

Absolutely. When someone signs, they need to read the fine print.

It is all fine print (I've read hundreds of deeds of trust over the past few years, and it will make your eyes bug out). That being said, on every deed and rider, I have read them to completion. I have friends who just go in and sign here and initial there. In and out in 30 mins. I was 90 mins into my last closing. Title company officer was sitting there twiddling her thumbs, munching on the free cookies while I carefully read everything, and caught several errors (some were correctable with initialing, others required a reprint of the document) In the end, I knew what I was getting into (I specifically selected a 5/1 ARM, with full knowledge that my 4.75% could potentially jump up to 9.75% in 5 years). There is no excuse for people to NOT understand fully what they are agreeing to. If you can read English, you can read, comprehend, and agree to (if you are 18 that is) such an instrument.

But there are many lenders that cut corners and did some creative packaging they should not have to allow those loans to take place.

No-docs are risky business, and they didn't charge a high enough premium in % to write them IMHO, as they were feeling the results of tight margins and loose money. I think the biggest issue was lenders who didn't require PMI, but merely jacked the rate half a point. What a mistake that was, and I can't believe they were so short-sited to do so.

Because the banks loaned so much money to people who could not afford them beyond some initial payments, I'm watching as it starts to unravel and affect the entire economy. Even working slobs like me who chose to rent and save for a down payment.

Yeah, it affects me to, but not terrible. Money is tight right now. Banks can't borrow more $ to write new loans given their outstanding loans. Money is tight, but still, REALLY CHEAP.

30 yr fixed mtg 5.82%
15 yr fixed mtg 5.24%
5/1 ARM 5.02%
30 yr fixed jumbo mtg 6.76%
5/1 jumbo ARM 5.64%

Those rates are up a quarter point from last week, ubt are STILL less than I paid when I bought my previous house 5 years back. Sure, you better have an 800+ score now instead of 720+ (no issue here either), but that is easily doable if you understand what constitutes your FICO.

All this being said, realestate didn't put the economy where it is today. OVERSPENDING and idiotic lenders did. They should reap what they sow IMHO too.

 

[Patrick Murtha]

Secret? I have no idea here. However, your attitude is everything.

Check Amazon.

I hope your belief is never put to the test.

 

[Decodence]

So, individuals must be held to account for their actions, but not corporations?

Gotcha.

Funny, but you left out of your little screed that previously stated and affirmed fact that the majority of personal bankruptcies are a result of a catastrophic illness.

Here's hoping it's something other than such an illness or a long spell of un- (or under-)employment that one day rids you of what comes off in this discussion (I admittedly do not know you at all) as a severe lack of empathy.

Insurance. People will sell you all kinds. Buy some. Provide for medical/dental/vision/prescription/behavioral health issues (not so cheap, but look for an employer which will help pay part of your premium). ST/LT disability. Again, CHEAP protection. Life insurance... CHEAP. Personal liability umbrella policy... REDICULOUSLY CHEAP.

Anybody with any assets to lose, who is married, or has children, should have all of the above.

Edit: Also, for non-covered medical type services... RIDERS which do cover the gamut are available for even cheaper once you have an existing policy.

 

[skyvue]

Also, for non-covered medical type services... RIDERS which do cover the gamut are available for even cheaper once you have an existing policy.

I'm beginning to see the light. So it's on me a) for not realizing that one day I might have bone growths on my inner jaw bone, b) for thinking that my health insurance, for which my employer and I combine to pay a pretty penny, might actually cover at least a portion of the cost for the removal of said bone growths, and therefore c) for not using my already limited funds to buy yet another piece of insurance to cover the condition I was shortsighted enough to not realize I was going to stricken with.

 

[jgilbert]

Check Amazon.

I hope your belief is never put to the test.

It has been tested and I stand by my statement.

Skyvue. The answer is yes it is up to you. If not you then who?

 

[Decodence]

I'm beginning to see the light. So it's on me a) for not realizing that one day I might have bone growths on my inner jaw bone,

Insurance is pooled risk. You buy it, hoping you will never need it. You took the risk you wouldn't get some non-covered condition, and lost.

I canb) for thinking that my health insurance, for which my employer and I combine to pay a pretty penny, might actually cover at least a portion of the cost for the removal of said bone growths, and therefore

I assume you read, and understood your benefits before hand.

c) for not using my already limited funds to buy yet another piece of insurance to cover the condition I was shortsighted enough to not realize I was going to stricken with.

Hey, premium care and coverage isn't cheap. Riders exist for a reason, to supplement existing benefits. As I said, they are pretty darn cheap.

Maybe I should just run for Congress or even President. Then I'd have no medical bills at all.

Part of their compensation package. There is a $ value attached to said coverage. Now, if you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till you see how expensive it will be when it is "free".

 

[Foofoogal]

Here's hoping it's something other than such an illness or a long spell of un- (or under-)employment that one day rids you of what comes off in this discussion (I admittedly do not know you at all) as a severe lack of empathy.

not nice to wish harm on anyone. Just giving his opinion.

Once again knowledge is power and ignorance is not bliss. It does sound like decodence is gifted or has knowledge about the real estate and a few other things.
I get so frustrated when I realize I don't know enough about something. Took me a few home ownerships to figure out to put 20% down to not have to pay PMI and pay my own taxes. That and the fact that at the time I got no kidding 8 payment booklets stating I was short $14.00 in my escrow and they would spread it across a whole years payments. It was hysterical.
The level of predators are at a high but this is why we do need to read and learn and learn as we go.
When I took care of my father with cancer I met a man in the hospital who was there because his wife was terminally ill. This man had been a CEO of a large company. Because of his wifes longtime illness he had gone thru his retirement, his insurance which was good and was now on government. I learned right then and there that there is no foolproof safety net but God. I haven't starved yet.
Golden Rule, Karma or whatever you want to call it does play a role.
My brother lived in a country for 30 years with free medical and he will tell you it has its flaws.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

not nice to wish harm on anyone. Just giving his opinion.

Your sanctimoniousness fools no one, except yourself.

And he did not wish harm. Reread what he wrote.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

Insurance is pooled risk. You buy it, hoping you will never need it. You took the risk you wouldn't get some non-covered condition, and lost. I assume you read, and understood your benefits before hand.

Are you for real? You're starting to sound like someone who is just trying to get a rise out of people.

No one, and I mean NO ONE could possibly know every condition out there to see if it will be covered before getting a plan.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

By the way, Foofa, after your comments a while back about using the FL as a testing ground for your marketing theory, it's awfully hard to believe you are honest.

 

[Decodence]

Are you for real? You're starting to sound like someone who is just trying to get a rise out of people.

No one, and I mean NO ONE could possibly know every condition out there to see if it will be covered.

No, I am not. Most medical/dental policies are EXTREMELY limited in what they cover. This shouldn't be a shock to anyone. Does anybody other than me actually read their member benefit statements? Even top-tier employer offering fall VERY short. Ancillary coverage is available for a marginal fee which will usually cover the less-common procedures. You either take your chances because you don't want to spend the $ on premiums, or you buy coverage. It is as simple as that. No emotion involved, only your tolerance to risk.