The Paradox of the Well-Dressed Man

[Lonn]

When I dress like...

Hi,
I'm following Staggerwing's lead. This looks like a good place to introduce one's self.
I am Lonn, and I am relatively new here. I have been listening for a while.
The comments about how we are treated when dressed well reminded me of my own thoughts that when I dress like a gentleman, I act like a gentleman and when I dress for adventure, I usually find it.
I don't necessarily consider myself "Golden Age" stuff although I do attribute myself with the coining of the phrase "resurgence art deco." I think I am committed more to the intent of the British Officers Shirt than strict adherence to the original, for example. I prefer REI's nylon "sahara" technical shirt and matching convertible pants. Also nylon. With a tie tucked in between the second and third button, a trim heavy duty leather jacket and a Fedora, the girls all say I look like Indiana Jones.
I can live with that, and quick dry, too.
That being said, what I have learned here about suits and ties I could not, did not learn anywhere else.
Thank you for being here.

 

[Zemke Fan]

Welcome, Jim!

Just found this place, and this looked like a good thread to say hello. Jim

fftopic: (Shamelessly so.)

We've got a growing group of crazies here in America's Largest Theme Park (DC). Major mid-Atlantic event this year will be the Reading WWII Weekend in June. -- Col. Z.

 

[Zemke Fan]

I respectfully disagree, poetman...

Moreover, a group of people at a given event feel such disrespect: jeans with a sport jacket communicates that the wearer purposes to disrespect others.

This all depends upon the context. If everyone else is in suits, then it is (of course) inappropriate to dress in jeans and a sportscoat. However, if everyone else is in jeans and T-shirts, then (untorn) jeans, a well-tailored jacket, a white button-down shirt, and high-quality loafers is entirely appropriate. In fact, this is one of my signature looks and I not only like it a LOT, but I get a lot of positive comments. Frankly, great looking jeans are no different from good khakis or any other pants.

I tend to overdress most of the time, and to me, that's the secret. Be the best dressed person in the room and you will never feel out of place. Be the worst dressed person and you will ALWAYS feel ill at ease. (This goes completely contrary to Audrey Hepburn's philosophy, BTW, as expressed in Audrey Style.)

 

[Fletch]

My default first-date clothing used to be levi's, a white b/d, black 3B jacket with good shoulders, and penny loafers. I looked cazh' but with a hint at elegance, and it was compatible with anything the lady might wear.

The outfit worked very well, but I've since stopped going on first dates. I now prefer to go right to the second date.

 

[Twitch]

Zemke has it right again. It's all relative to your surroundings. I always thought that when in doubt I'd dress a bit better than I thought was necessary. If a tie wasn't ubiquitous on men at any gathering if I had one I still wouldn't look bad as if I didn't wear a jacket and came in shirt sleeves.

But it depends on the venue. I sure as hell don't suit up to go to the neighborhood cine-plex. Dressing up is an urban thing at best. In the vast rural areas of the planet people may have one set of dress clothes if they are lucky for cuurch, funerals and weddings.

A frind of mine is an electrican and he bought his 1st suit when he was like 40. Why? Because the circles he moved in required no formal dress. Like Zemke mentions if you show up to a luau in a sports jacket or suit when everybody is in Hawaiian shirts and muu muus you are horridly out of place!

There is a fine line between dressing appropriately and dressing in costume. I think some folks dress in costume and move about their local societies just to get comments pro or con. Get over it. Costumes in normal activities look stupid. Finery is acceptable for an art museum but is way outta place in an aviation museum. Dress well for a fine uptown restaurant but dress in sync for the neighborhood place.

Being dressed to the nines for average suburban venues looks as silly as the guy who arrived at a performance of Phantom of the Opera in Hollywood in T shirt and shorts while everyone else was appropriately clad.

Men have to be careful to not look like a dandy either. It looks so gay- and I mean that in the most unsexual way. I'd see chaps at business functions that looked about like they were ready to throw on a powered wig and inhale some snuff from a silver box. La-dee-da! And the rest noticed how overdone they were too just as if they were underdone.

Just don't overdress or underdress for the venue or routine activities.

 

[reetpleat]

A frind of mine is an electrican and he bought his 1st suit when he was like 40. Why? Because the circles he moved in required no formal dress. Like Zemke mentions if you show up to a luau in a sports jacket or suit when everybody is in Hawaiian shirts and muu muus you are horridly out of place!

There is a fine line between dressing appropriately and dressing in costume. I think some folks dress in costume and move about their local societies just to get comments pro or con. Get over it. Costumes in normal activities look stupid. Finery is acceptable for an art museum but is way outta place in an aviation museum. Dress well for a fine uptown restaurant but dress in sync for the neighborhood place.

Being dressed to the nines for average suburban venues looks as silly as the guy who arrived at a performance of Phantom of the Opera in Hollywood in T shirt and shorts while everyone else was appropriately clad.



While I don't think you are wrong for yourself, don't discount the costume dressers. i would be bummed if someone just thought i was a well dressed guy. I want them to read it as a vintage look. I want them to treat me like they would treat a 1939 chevy.

I guess I am a costume dresser, either on the town or at a swing event.

I know some others too. And while I would feel kind of sillly going to a suburban mall all decked out, (I do feel like you tht it is a more urban thing) I will go to a barbecue in a vintge hawaiian shirt under a sportcoat and straw fedora. It is a great authentic vintage look by the way. Very California.

So, I guess there are many different approaches to what we are about here. I for one would have to consider myself a costume dresser and i love it.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Isn't this argument stemming from the absurdity of prescribed dress codes? Dress codes are ridiculous inventions and serve only to make people feel that others are better than them. I don't care if someone turns up to the opera or their church in pajamas. It doesn't matter one jot to the functioning of the particular performance. But it makes the snobs who like to look down on people a little bit merrier, i guess . . .

Me? I'll be seen in all occasions in well cut vintage suits or sports combinations.

bk

 

[Orgetorix]

Isn't this argument stemming from the absurdity of prescribed dress codes? Dress codes are ridiculous inventions and serve only to make people feel that others are better than them. I don't care if someone turns up to the opera or their church in pajamas. It doesn't matter one jot to the functioning of the particular performance. But it makes the snobs who like to look down on people a little bit merrier, i guess . . .

Me? I'll be seen in all occasions in well cut vintage suits or sports combinations.

bk

Are we talking about specific dress codes at offices, schools, restaurants, etc., or more general social conventions that stipulate various kinds of "appropriate" attire for different situtations? The reason we have different kinds of clothes--lounge suits, sports wear, evening dress--is because of the latter, and dressing would be a less varied and enjoyable experience if those social mores didn't (or hadn't) exist.

As for the former, I'm sort of ambivalent. I don't have a problem with dress codes at work; I think business owners have the right to ensure their employees project the image they want them to for the good of the company. I resented the dress code at my college, even though I enjoyed dressing well--being required to dress a certain way took some of the appeal out of it.

 

[vonwotan]

We rather enjoyed ourselves with the dress code in school. We only needed to wear the school blazer for special occasions, the rest of the time it was just jacket and tie. While in boarding school we found shark skin suits, two tone wing tips and some fairly wild ties at a thrift shop in town, and a local seamstress was able to make them fit reasonable well. This really drove the Asst. Headmaster nuts but, he could not bring it to the disciplinary committe.

If pressed I would admit to being a supporter of dress codes in school and in the workplace. Empirically, I believe it contributes to the collective work ethic, and lends to a collegial atmosphere. There is still plenty of room for individual expression but, it fosters a sense of belonging.

Addmittedly my experience is quite limited as I attended small private schools from nursery through law school, and we wore jacket and tie all the way through 6th form / 12th grade. In college I made an effort to be more casual, but quickly found myseld back in tweed jackets, blazers, khakis (wool) and cords...

 

[Twitch]

Ogrertorix you do hit the proverbial nail on the head. It's a case of dressing appropriately for the venue. Wearing vintage all the time everywhere is dressing in costume. Sure at a swing dance or era-style event it is appropriate but calling on clients for your firm or a business-related convention? It all boils down to what is allowed by management and what is not. If one has no constraints of that sort from the business world then knock yourself out. But don't show up to a gathering of potential clients at your company meeting looking like a 30s throwback or you'll be looking for a job soon in most cases. By the same token don't show up in a golf shirt and levis.

 

[Lady Day]

“Once, sissies were mistaken for gentlemen; alas, now gentlemen are mistaken for sissies.”


personally, i don't think a man should ever be TOO pristine. even the most well dressed man, to my eye, should still have a touch of roughness somewhere, even if its just one out of place fore-lock of hair, or leather shoes that are well worn (but lovingly polished) rather than immaculate.

:eusa_clap
It shows not only the man beneath, but the loving and ongoing effort he put forth to achieve that look as one of thought and consideration.

Very well said, HBK

LD

 

[Brian Sheridan]

I teach college and most students look like they rolled out of bed and came to class. It is (most of the time) a good reflection of how they do in class and do their work - sloppy and casually. It is probably how they have sex too but that's for another thread!

The problem of the well-dressed man today is the shift to a "hang-on-to-youth-at-all-cost" mentality. It used to be you looked forward to becoming an adult. The examples I grew up watching, be in it real life or on TV or movies, showed that being an adult was awesome. They got to stay up late, go out, enjoy music and shows, drink, smoke, and gamble. James Bond was an adult, not a child. Children didn't get a license to kill.

Today though it is all about the youth. Media celebrates young people (and adults) who act like children, not adults. (See: celebutards) It seems to have a big impact causing 40 year old men act like 20 year olds -and I don't mean in the good way - trying to delay maturity. So we get rudeness, vulgarity, bad behavior, all packed in sloppy clothes.

It is hard to believe that many of our Golden Age idols, were only in their 20's themselves but carried themselves like adults - they faked it until they made it.

Nowadays, everyone wants to be the kid's best friend and not an adult role model for them. My friend gave me a great piece of advice when I told him my wife and I were expecting - he said "Remember- you are raising an adult; not a child."

 

[jamespowers]

Nowadays, everyone wants to be the kid's best friend and not an adult role model for them. My friend gave me a great piece of advice when I told him my wife and I were expecting - he said "Remember- you are raising an adult; not a child."

A very good point.
I remember one of my uncle's responses to one of his children who got mad at him and pulled the old "hate you" routine. He laughed and said. "That's ok, I'll live. I am not going to die if you don't like me."

Regards,

J

 

[Baron Kurtz]

But don't show up to a gathering of potential clients at your company meeting looking like a 30s throwback or you'll be looking for a job soon in most cases.

I mean, really, does no-one see the absurdity of this statement? To suggest that wearing a well cut vintage suit is in any way different to wearing a well cut modern suit is the height of foolishness. There is, essentially, no difference between the two (except the availability, on a tight budget, of well cut vintage). That is, neither will make you look like a throwback. When we talk about wearing vintage, we're hardly hinting at turning up to work looking as ridiculous (my opinion only) as Cab Calloway. The availability of beautifully cut vintage business suits far outweighs the costumes (yes, they were costumes then, too, if by costume we mean fad).

Frankly, wearing a cruddy modern cut off-the-peg suit just because you're working in a business context, is dressing in costume just as much as is wearing vintage. This being the large problem with modern dress: Suits are seen as costume, to be thrown off as soon as one is outside the business environment.

bk

 

[PrettySquareGal]

I mean, really, does no-one see the absurdity of this statement? To suggest that wearing a well cut vintage suit is in any way different to wearing a well cut modern suit is the height of foolishness. There is, essentially, no difference between the two (except the availability, on a tight budget, of well cut vintage). That is, neither will make you look like a throwback. When we talk about wearing vintage, we're hardly hinting at turning up to work looking as ridiculous (my opinion only) as Cab Calloway. The availability of beautifully cut vintage business suits far outweighs the costumes (yes, they were costumes then, too, if by costume we mean fad).

Frankly, wearing a cruddy modern cut off-the-peg suit just because you're working in a business context, is dressing in costume just as much as is wearing vintage. This being the large problem with modern dress: Suits are seen as costume, to be thrown off as soon as one is outside the business environment.

bk

I've made many sales presentations over the years, and I have to agree with Twitch whether it's men or women we are discussing. Unfortunately people are very quick to judge, especially when they are listening to a sales pitch. While a 30's suit may be far superior to a modern suit, most people will view it as eccentric or distracting and perhaps a reason not to do business with you- they jump to conclusions ("Oh, he's out there. How will he handle my account?). I don't agree with that line of thinking, it's wrong, superficial, and no, not all think like that, but many many people do. Unless of course you are in the antiques/vintage business. Then it may be expected.

 

[scotrace]

Though I can clearly see the point the Good Baron is making (and I think he's right in general terms), PrettySquareGal is on the money, so to speak, when it comes to sales situations where you're pitching new clients. It is so very difficult to reach some level of trust with a new client, that one is best off not bringing unecessary distractions to the table. A piece of vintage jewelry would be fine, perhaps - especially if it can serve as a conversation starter. But when money is on the line, then you'd better tow the line in your attire. I think it's just a matter of maximizing your chances for success in that situation, and minimizing the little things that can screw it up.

And it's very much a case-by-case thing!

Pitchng a potential new advertiser for Classic Style: Go vintage!
Pitching a chain of banks for their employee health insurance account: Don't risk it!

The rule is "How can I make it as easy and comfortable as possible for these people to hand me a wheelbarrow full of cash?"

 

[Baron Kurtz]

but it would be inadvisable to wear a very well cut 3 piece suit in a conservative fabric? Let's say a plain dark blue flannel or gabardine . . .

the point being that something can be well cut - in that it fits you "properly" and maximises the impact of your physique - without being flashy.

bk

 

[Senator Jack]

I've been IT consulting on my own for the last seven years. Never got turned down by a prospective client for looking vintage.

Years ago, all the accountants, lawyers, et cetera, might have thought I was an oddball, but now they're all asking me where I get my clothes!

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[Fletch]

I would be careful what company you wore a vested suit to. Many will assume you've been living in the woods since 1983.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Fortunately i'm in a business where no-one gives a damn what you look like. We're used to dealing with people giving their presentations covered in dirt because they didn't have time to change from their field clothes.

So no-one looks twice at the guy in the suit. (The norm is blue Levis and a button collar shirt. A member of my examining committee owns three pairs of identical blue Levis and 5 identical button collar blue striped cotton shirts. he doesn't like to look in a mirror and see something he didn't expect, so he dresses the same all the time.)

bk