The Nationalist Myth, War and "Vintage"

[sheeplady]

...so isn't that very much like 1930's Germany? Or 1910's Turkey? Or 1990's Yugoslavia? Or 1910's Russia? Or 1980's El Salvador?

I think it would be fascinating to ask this of someone who lived through those time periods as citizens of those places and immigrated here following those tragedies.

I know a lot of people who are in the U.S. from places where the governments are dictatorships. Those who are willing to talk about their experiences often express shock at how much political and policy double talk there is in the U.S. But they are still very happy to be here- but the U.S. is not the perfect democracy they had envisioned.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Perfect democracy -- or any other "perfect" system -- does not exist, has never existed, and will never exist. When someone rises up and proclaims otherwise, one is well advised to move as far away from them as possible.

 

[1961MJS]

I think it would be fascinating to ask this of someone who lived through those time periods as citizens of those places and immigrated here following those tragedies.

I know a lot of people who are in the U.S. from places where the governments are dictatorships. Those who are willing to talk about their experiences often express shock at how much political and policy double talk there is in the U.S. But they are still very happy to be here- but the U.S. is not the perfect democracy they had envisioned.

Well, years ago I could have helped you out. A friend's Grandfather moved from Germany prior to WW1 and served in the US Army in WW1. In roughly 1938 he returned to Germany to bring his brother and his family to America. Since he was born a German citizen, he was drafted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the Eastern Front as a communications NCO eventually reaching the equivalent rank of Sergeant Major.

Sometime prior to June 1944, he was sent to Normandy to help provide communications for the beach defenses. When the attacks started, he found a hole and stayed in it for a few days until the fighting has passed his location. At some point he crawled out and surrendered to the nearest GI "I'm Private Spangler US Serial Number xxxxxxx and I got drafted into the GD German Army, get me the hell out of here." They even let him take home his Luger.

Later

 

[sheeplady]

Perfect democracy -- or any other "perfect" system -- does not exist, has never existed, and will never exist. When someone rises up and proclaims otherwise, one is well advised to move as far away from them as possible.

Well, perfect isn't quite the right word for it. Perhaps the best way to describe it would be how "(mildly) lacking in democracy" the U.S. is compared to how they envisioned it. However, I'm always worried (as are many of the people I've spoken to) of casting their views in such a light to make it look like they are ungrateful for being in this country. There are a lot of people who want to tear down immigrants and new citizens who make a valid commentary as being ungrateful and follow that with we should ship them back to wherever they came from.

 

[filfoster]

I think this is part of the reason why so many people insist on viewing the Nazi regime as an aberration, as some sort of Colossus of Inhuman Evil that sprang from the minds of demonized men -- not a political regime that was the product of people as ordinary as we are. If the Nazis were inhuman, then it couldn't happen again. If they were *just like us*, people who loved their families and went for walks after supper and worried about the roof leaking and complained when their sciatica acted up -- it could happen anytime.

Does anyone over 30, not still living at home, really disagree with this? Isn't this part of an adult's self understanding-ordinary people are quite capable of behaving very badly in certain circumstances- and our adult cynicism for utopian belief systems, that deny human nature, good and bad?

My goodness, this is all rather too serious for me. I'm heading to the thread about cocktails.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You'd be surprised. I've talked to full-grown, liberal-arts-degree-holding adults, well over the age of 30, who have no idea that, for example, Japan ever did anything at all aggressive to anyone until Pearl Harbor. And they believe the ordinary German people had nothing to do with that small clutch of sinister Nazis, who are seen as somewhat akin to uniformed comic-book villians.

"Wait, you mean it didn't really happen that way?"

As hard as it might be for us to realize, World War 2 is as alien to most people's thoughts today as the wars of Charlemagne.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Not hard for me to believe. Five years ago, much less fifty years ago, is ancient history to most people out there. And with ever-decreasing attention spans, both individual and collective, it's going to get worse. :doh:

 

[Undertow]

Well, perfect isn't quite the right word for it. Perhaps the best way to describe it would be how "(mildly) lacking in democracy" the U.S. is compared to how they envisioned it. However, I'm always worried (as are many of the people I've spoken to) of casting their views in such a light to make it look like they are ungrateful for being in this country. There are a lot of people who want to tear down immigrants and new citizens who make a valid commentary as being ungrateful and follow that with we should ship them back to wherever they came from.

I'd say that sounds like a cowardly move on anyone's part. Shouting people down because they raise important questions is precisely what's wrong with mob rule. I'm quite peeved by those comments, "If you don't like it, get out!" or, "Would you rather live in [enter 3rd world country]?" That's an intellectual failure on the shouting fool's part.

A healthy society is one who embraces humility. Unfortunately, according to some bone heads in this country - just like any other - the US can do no wrong, and anyone who disagrees can "git out!"

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

As childish as it may be, unfortunately that tactic often works quite well. I've had a few discussions in my time where I was forced to retreat under an emotion-laden barrage of ad hominem invective. You may very well have won the argument but the point quickly becomes irrelevant when, forensically speaking, your opponent goes for the "nuclear option," often with the F-Bomb being a particular weapon of choice.

 

[Undertow]

You'd be surprised. I've talked to full-grown, liberal-arts-degree-holding adults, well over the age of 30, who have no idea that, for example, Japan ever did anything at all aggressive to anyone until Pearl Harbor...

Nanking was transformed into a horrendous wasteland. I was never taught about this in school, and I rarely heard discussion of this among intellectural friends, and then only murmurs because none of them had any history on the subject. It's nauseating to think of all those people murdered. It's almost impossible to imagine what happened to those who survived. Of course, I did some reading on the subject, starting with The Rape of Nanking. Well worth the read.

It's a shame so many really smart people are so ignorant of history; especially THAT kind of history.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Indeed. But you can bet your bottom dollar every single one of those Smart People had heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Nanking was transformed into a horrendous wasteland. I was never taught about this in school, and I rarely heard discussion of this among intellectural friends, and then only murmurs because none of them had any history on the subject. It's nauseating to think of all those people murdered. It's almost impossible to imagine what happened to those who survived. Of course, I did some reading on the subject, starting with The Rape of Nanking. Well worth the read.

And writing the book took such an emotional toll on author Iris Chang that she suffered a nervous breakdown and, after battling depression for several years, committed suicide. At the time of her death she was working on a book about the Bataan Death March. There's even a statue of her at the Nanjing Massacre Memorial

 

[Undertow]

Indeed. But you can bet your bottom dollar every single one of those Smart People had heard of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

One might even argue that the entire Pacific Theater was give very little time in history. There was Pearl Harbor followed by some nuclear bombs, direct your eyes to the screen here...those are mushroom clouds...and that was the end of that.

I went to see The Thin Red Line when it came out in 1998. I remember even after the film was over, friends of mine were confused how the VIETNAM WAR could have happened in Japan.

Honestly? That is disgraceful.

 

[sheeplady]

I'd say that sounds like a cowardly move on anyone's part. Shouting people down because they raise important questions is precisely what's wrong with mob rule. I'm quite peeved by those comments, "If you don't like it, get out!" or, "Would you rather live in [enter 3rd world country]?" That's an intellectual failure on the shouting fool's part.

A healthy society is one who embraces humility. Unfortunately, according to some bone heads in this country - just like any other - the US can do no wrong, and anyone who disagrees can "git out!"

It's unfortunate. I see these people as a wealth of knowledge of the kind of stuff that can happen in a country and how it happens. Since I don't want to end up with their experiences, I'd willingly hear their criticisms and really digest what they say. I've never seen any of these people act ungrateful to our nation.

 

[LizzieMaine]

One might even argue that the entire Pacific Theater was give very little time in history. There was Pearl Harbor followed by some nuclear bombs, direct your eyes to the screen here...those are mushroom clouds...and that was the end of that.

I went to see The Thin Red Line when it came out in 1998. I remember even after the film was over, friends of mine were confused how the VIETNAM WAR could have happened in Japan.

Honestly? That is disgraceful.

When you teach effect (Hiroshima) without teaching cause (fifteen years of Japanese militarism and nine million murdered Chinese and Korean civilians) you aren't teaching history at all.

For a bit of perspective, take the maximum estimated death tolls of both the atomic bombings, add them together, and you still don't have the death toll from Nanking alone.

 

[sheeplady]

I wonder how much of the glossing over of certain events had to do with feelings that it was necessary to do so to forgive and forget, so that those countries could be seen as allies following the war. It's much easier to see someone as a friend if you forget their bad parts or are willing to see their "mistakes" as being lesser than your own "mistakes."

 

[Paul Roerich]

I wonder how much of the glossing over of certain events had to do with feelings that it was necessary to do so to forgive and forget, so that those countries could be seen as allies following the war. It's much easier to see someone as a friend if you forget their bad parts or are willing to see their "mistakes" as being lesser than your own "mistakes."

Absolutely true in the case of Japan. 'Shogun' MacArthur saw to that.

 

[LizzieMaine]

A lot of people formed their opinion of MacArthur in 1932 -- whitewashing Japanese atrocities for the sake of expediency would be right in character for him. It wasn't just Japan though, and it wasn't just MacArthur. A lot of Germans ended up working for us who should have ended up on the gallows.

I think, also, there's a trace of not wanting to be seen as racist in the way a lot of Americans view Japan's wartime record today. To be willing to overlook the atrocities committed in the name of the Mikado -- atrocities that were on a par with and often exceeded the brutality of the deeds of the Nazis -- as some perverse atonement for internment camps, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki reveals just how utterly incapable of honest reasoning Americans -- especially white middle-class Americans -- can be in the face of the "R word."

 

[Story]

I think this is part of the reason why so many people insist on viewing the Nazi regime as an aberration, as some sort of Colossus of Inhuman Evil that sprang from the minds of demonized men -- not a political regime that was the product of people as ordinary as we are. If the Nazis were inhuman, then it couldn't happen again. If they were *just like us*, people who loved their families and went for walks after supper and worried about the roof leaking and complained when their sciatica acted up -- it could happen anytime.

Recommended reading - http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html

While Sinclair is a bit shrill, his point then was well-founded
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
and the threat still exists from all quadrants of the political compass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awU4u9CbMtE

 

[Story]

What are your thoughts?

Trying to compare America's collective and divergent mindset during WWII to that of America today is futile. I've heard first person how the war for that generation occupied their waking moments for four years (the Americans, obviously) but seriously, do you know what's going on in Afghanistan right now?

Do you know what troops have been committed to Africa? Or did you just change the channel?

21st century America might have had it's military at war since 2001, but unless you have someone you care about in uniform, you might as well admit it : the rest of you are at the mall.

You have no vested interests, nor could you even name what National Guard units local to you are currently deployed in harm's way.

Is this a condemnation? Not really. More like a plea, to pay attention.

If you can't do that, at least send these folks a couple of bucks.

http://www.uso.org/


Been here, felt this.