The main Raiders mod - is never made.

[3thoubucks]

I'm just a Raiders hat guy, so I stick to Club Obi Wan, but I think you'll find this important, (or ludicrous). Last week I bought a vintage Lock and Co fedora on ebay. It didn't have a size tag, and the seller estimated an inner circumference of 22 1/2 inches. I measured it at 22 15/16. My head measures 22 1/8, so I had me a way too large hat. (I guessed it had a 2 1/2 inch brim, but it was only 2 3/16)

The only way to make it wearable was to cinch up the ribbon so much, I had to remove the sweatband and put in a smaller one. It makes sense to me, that this is how the Raiders hat was modified. -3 reasons. One, the brim break seems to be way out on the brim in the front and back of the Raiders hat. Two, this generates in effect, a perfect "dimensional cut" brim. Three, this much ribbon cinching produces the horrendous grove down the crown in the front bash, same as the Raiders hat.

I always thought the hat was cinched up, but never made the leap to using a smaller sweatband. Therefore I made my own fuller blocks, and searched ebay daily for a Herbert Johnson with an unusually full block. Now I believe the Raiders hat was just a typical block of the day. This Lock & Co hat's open crown shape looks the same a new open crown Akubra Federation 4.

That's a size 57 Akubra sweatband. I'm between a size 57 and 58. A size 58 would have fit better, but I was able to leave a gap where the grove down the front bash goes. My forehead is more vertical than Ford's, and might have pushed the grove out.

 

[3thoubucks]

Just to clarify- The smaller sweatband is attached in the normal position on the sides, but is moved up into the crown in the front and back.

 

[DJH]

Since smaller size vintage hats are much easier to find, getting a hat that actually fits would probably have made much more sense.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Doesn't work for me. The brim is way too narrow & the hat has a kinda amateurish cheap look about it......I think you did a decent job on the crown dents though.
Maybe, if after removing the sweatband, you had soaked or steamed the base of the crown, it may have shrunk enough to fit you or at least would have done so with a little padding under the sweat. I've never heard anyone 'cinching up a ribbon' which looks like it has pushed up the sides of the brim, not my cup of tea.Sorry bud but I don't buy your theory about how the 'Raiders ' hat was modified either.

 

[RJR]

Doesn't work for me. The brim is way too narrow & the hat has a kinda amateurish cheap look about it......I think you did a decent job on the crown dents though.
Maybe, if after removing the sweatband, you had soaked or steamed the base of the crown, it may have shrunk enough to fit you or at least would have done so with a little padding under the sweat. I've never heard anyone 'cinching up a ribbon' which looks like it has pushed up the sides of the brim, not my cup of tea.Sorry bud but I don't buy your theory about how the 'Raiders ' hat was modified either.

I agree,perhaps John Penman will wade in.Seems I remember him talking about special techniques/tools to get the "correct" brim.

 

[scottyrocks]

The ribbon tightening is a theory that has been discussed on COW. Also, there are different stories from different people as to how the hat came into being - who discovered it, who modified it, and how. So many of these theories are still just theories, some more plausible than others.

The most plausible theory to me regarding the SOC (Streets of Cairo) hat, which is the one 3thou is trying to emulate, is that the hat got that way from a combination of the quality, or lack thereof, of the felt, 'the turn,' the mutchering of the felt by Ford between takes, sweating in it on very hot shooting days, and possibly the drenching it took in the airplane escape scene at the beginning of the movie, if you believe that was the same hat.

 

[hatsRme]

What's the OP's point?

 

[Lean'n'mean]

How to ruin a vintage hat ?

 

[3thoubucks]

How to ruin a vintage hat ?

Since smaller size vintage hats are much easier to find, getting a hat that actually fits would probably have made much more sense.

I have 20 felt hats, including 7 vintage Herbert Johnsons. I was very lucky to get this hat, because if I knew how big it really was I wouldn't have bought it.

Doesn't work for me. The brim is way too narrow & the hat has a kinda amateurish cheap look about it......I think you did a decent job on the crown dents though.
Maybe, if after removing the sweatband, you had soaked or steamed the base of the crown, it may have shrunk enough to fit you or at least would have done so with a little padding under the sweat. I've never heard anyone 'cinching up a ribbon' which looks like it has pushed up the sides of the brim, not my cup of tea.Sorry bud but I don't buy your theory about how the 'Raiders ' hat was modified either.

The brim is too narrow, but this post isn't about the hat, it's about how this huge hat revealed the Raiders main ingredient to me. It looks amateurish because I took 2 of these pictures the same day I got it, tore it apart and modified it, pretty sure it would be a disaster, and I'd have to reblock it smaller if I wanted to wear it. Plus the old bashes had 60 or 70 years to set in. Ribbon tightening would curl the brim, but the brim alrerady had mega curl, (see first picture). YES - The crown dents are amazingly deep, due to the ribbon cinching. The same force that puts the grove down one dent also deepens the other dent. Very Raiders! Here's how I deal with wearing a too short brim. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KzOB2W6IuWY/UYMTExZ8eAI/AAAAAAAAgi4/DO1ZtyKtouo/s1600/b.jpg

The ribbon tightening is a theory that has been discussed on COW. Also, there are different stories from different people as to how the hat came into being - who discovered it, who modified it, and how. So many of these theories are still just theories, some more plausible than others.

The most plausible theory to me regarding the SOC (Streets of Cairo) hat, which is the one 3thou is trying to emulate, is that the hat got that way from a combination of the quality, or lack thereof, of the felt, 'the turn,' the mutchering of the felt by Ford between takes, sweating in it on very hot shooting days, and possibly the drenching it took in the airplane escape scene at the beginning of the movie, if you believe that was the same hat.

I did a search for "smaller sweatband" at COW- this hasn't been done before at COW. One of the results was a post of mine from 2004 about ribbon cinching. Deborah Nodoolman Landis, the Raiders costumer, said the crown was "lowered". I've lowered the crown front and rear. I turned this hat. I popularized the turn, and that theory is still disputed- here's a web site I made 13 years ago http://brokenheartsfixedhere.homestead.com/GalleryOfTheTurnedHats.html I'm not trying to emulate the SOC in particular, as you can see the brim break is in the same place, out on the brim in the Elstree scenes. AdVintage is aware of this somewhat- They only move the ribbon up on the crown a little bit though. The brim should be breaking at the bottom of the ribbon, like in the movie. http://www.indy-hut.de/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/763_9-300x186.jpg

What's the OP's point?

Taking the sweatband out of a too big hat, allows a lot of ribbon cinching, even at the base of the crown. Then, installing a smaller sweatband, moved up into the crown front and rear, puts the brim break out on the brim front and rear, as is SA. It gives you the SA grove down the font dent and under the ribbon. It gives you a virtual dimensional cut brim. If his theory is valid, it means the Raiders hat wasn't some rare unobtainable hat, it was a common hat block, still made today.

Fedoras, like the Fed 4 tend to have the same crown height no matter what the size. A hat a few sizes too big doesn't have very much additional felt in the crown compared to a smaller size. This modification transitions some of the crown into the brim, and deepens the front bashes, so overall, the crown isn't altered that much volume wise. The changes are subtle but all SA.

 

[scottyrocks]

I did a search for "smaller sweatband" at COW- this hasn't been done before at COW. One of the results was a post of mine from 2004 about ribbon cinching.

I was talking about the ribbon, not the sweatband.

 

[hatsRme]

I like my hat to look like my hat. Long ago I stopped trying to be Batman, too. This all escapes me, somehow.

 

[DJH]

Don't worry, Charlie - this is all stuff & nonsense, you are not missing anything.

 

[3thoubucks]

Raiders was the best movie that will ever be made, with the best screen hat there will ever be, so.... I could be wrong... but if it wasn't for Raiders, there might not be a Fedora lounge. There certainly wouldn't be a COW.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

What's the OP's point?

Bump !....If anyone has figured this out could they please let us know.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

I was very lucky to get this hat, because if I knew how big it really was I wouldn't have bought it.

That's what you call lucky ?

 

[3thoubucks]

Lean'n'mean ... Are you sure you're not Steve Delk hiding out in Nevada?

....No, if I could only have one movie, I think it might be "Fools Gold" Matthew McConaughey, Kate Hudson.

 

[TheDane]

Please ...!!! There may be innocent grownups around

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Lean'n'mean ... Are you sure you're not Steve Delk hiding out in Nevada?

The only thing I'm sure of is that oranges are blue.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

but if it wasn't for Raiders, there might not be a Fedora lounge. There certainly wouldn't be a COW.

Not sure about the F.L. but I can assure you, cows were around long before ' Raiders'

 

[Wesslyn]

Not to argue but a lot of your theories are easily disputed with a little bit of research. I think makers like Penman and adVintage have the specs down and it shows in their work. Taking a 60-70 year old Lock and Co and trying to morph it into something it isn't is a bummer for loungers to see who would love the hat as is.