The lost art of dressing for the occasion

[Pompidou]

Another way to look at the question of dressing is to consider tradition: For generation upon generation, up until very recently, it was taken for granted that people would dress well for church, for the symphony, for a good restaurant, for a wedding, for a funeral, and so forth. Now, over the course of just a few years, a segment of the population (which I personally view as being lazy, slothful, self-centered, and ignorant) has taken it upon themselves to discard this tradition and show up dressed however they please, thus lessening the experience for everyone else. To these people, there is no such thing as an "occasion" except as defined by their own presence (hey, man, what's your problem? Does anybody except me even exist? I just wanna do my own thing . . .).

Tradition shouldn't hold any particular value for its own sake. If something is right, tradition doesn't make it better, nor does tradition make wrong actions better. I, personally, think it's important to look good, but "because that's how we've always done it" doesn't mean anything to me. I don't spend my whole life reinventing wheels, by any means, but I do try to independently justify as much as I can. I don't believe there's any other reason to justify dressing nicely for church other than a personal desire to do so.

That said, I do believe people are obligated to respect any host's dress codes. If a church had a dress code, I'd agree people need to respect it or find a new church. I don't believe anything except safety merits a dress code. Maybe people can talk their pastors into adopting dress codes so that their moments with the almighty aren't soiled by the unwashed masses. Might make a handful of people happy, and that's not a bad thing - making people happy.

 

[LizzieMaine]

To these people, there is no such thing as an "occasion" except as defined by their own presence (hey, man, what's your problem? Does anybody except me even exist? I just wanna do my own thing . . .).

Well, again, it's lack of humility: it's not even "I'm just as important as anybody here," it's "I'm *more* important than anybody here. The only thing that matters is my own comfort and convenience."

Making an effort, even when it inconveniences you, is a way of saying to your host, "This occasion is important to me. *You* are important to me." Not bothering to make an effort is a way of saying to your host "Yeah, whatever, there was nothing good on TV tonight."

 

[jamespowers]

Well, again, it's lack of humility: it's not even "I'm just as important as anybody here," it's "I'm *more* important than anybody here. The only thing that matters is my own comfort and convenience."

Making an effort, even when it inconveniences you, is a way of saying to your host, "This occasion is important to me. *You* are important to me." Not bothering to make an effort is a way of saying to your host "Yeah, whatever, there was nothing good on TV tonight."

Exactly!

 

[Miss Stella]

Without wanting to get into a discussion about religion, it is also about being universally accessible. I just think it clashes with the fundamental belief in humanity to exclude people due to their attire. As others have said, slack in dressing doesn't equate loose morals. Some of the best dressed people are criminals and/or completely faithless, while some of the kindest people with the strongest beliefs dress shabbily.

I wholeheartedly agree with you!
My comment was strictly made concerning an 'event' where I felt one should dress more 'appropriately' when one can.
(I will never understand why people think sweatpants and pj's should be worn to the store!)

 

[1961MJS]

Well, again, it's lack of humility: it's not even "I'm just as important as anybody here," it's "I'm *more* important than anybody here. The only thing that matters is my own comfort and convenience."

Making an effort, even when it inconveniences you, is a way of saying to your host, "This occasion is important to me. *You* are important to me." Not bothering to make an effort is a way of saying to your host "Yeah, whatever, there was nothing good on TV tonight."

Darn Lizzie, unfortunately you're hit the nail on the head. "Screw you, I'll wear my Jammies to your wedding and since you invited me that's o.k." Nothing on TV, Free food, and Free Booze. Now how do we reverse the trend?

Later

 

[jamespowers]

Darn Lizzie, unfortunately you're hit the nail on the head. "Screw you, I'll wear my Jammies to your wedding and since you invited me that's o.k." Nothing on TV, Free food, and Free Booze. Now how do we reverse the trend?

Later

You forgot to add "you won't mind since I am there and it is the thought that counts. It only matters that I am a good person on the inside." :rofl:

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I, personally, think there is value in tradition. Traditions exist because they're important and because the values behind them are important. Just because a generation of people decided that tradition is 'lame' and 'stodgy' and has decided to throw them away doesn't make them right over the generations before them.

Many people try to 'reinvent' the wheel, but that doesn't make it any sort of improvement and often times, you end up with a cheaper, less meaningful version of what existed prior. I want to make clear that I'm not directing this at you specifically, Pompidou. I like you and think highly of your opinion. While you and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum, you present your argument in an articulate and well-informed manner; which is refreshing when you're used to people putting their fingers in their ears and chanting 'you're wrong.'

I think dress codes are a joke. We didn't need to have them not too long ago. People knew what was expected of them and did accordingly. Somewhere, the ability to do that was lost in translation and it's time to fix that.

Tradition shouldn't hold any particular value for its own sake. If something is right, tradition doesn't make it better, nor does tradition make wrong actions better. I, personally, think it's important to look good, but "because that's how we've always done it" doesn't mean anything to me. I don't spend my whole life reinventing wheels, by any means, but I do try to independently justify as much as I can. I don't believe there's any other reason to justify dressing nicely for church other than a personal desire to do so.

That said, I do believe people are obligated to respect any host's dress codes. If a church had a dress code, I'd agree people need to respect it or find a new church. I don't believe anything except safety merits a dress code. Maybe people can talk their pastors into adopting dress codes so that their moments with the almighty aren't soiled by the unwashed masses. Might make a handful of people happy, and that's not a bad thing - making people happy.

 

[William Stratford]

Tradition shouldn't hold any particular value for its own sake. If something is right, tradition doesn't make it better, nor does tradition make wrong actions better. I, personally, think it's important to look good, but "because that's how we've always done it" doesn't mean anything to me. I don't spend my whole life reinventing wheels, by any means, but I do try to independently justify as much as I can. I don't believe there's any other reason to justify dressing nicely for church other than a personal desire to do so.

That said, I do believe people are obligated to respect any host's dress codes. If a church had a dress code, I'd agree people need to respect it or find a new church. I don't believe anything except safety merits a dress code. Maybe people can talk their pastors into adopting dress codes so that their moments with the almighty aren't soiled by the unwashed masses. Might make a handful of people happy, and that's not a bad thing - making people happy.

Traditions are things that we inherit from those who came before us - things held in trust and which connect us back across the ages. Unfortunately, today, there is this attitude that those who came before were either fools or monsters or just plain irrelevent. An attitude that requires we re-invent the wheel because that which is "old" is not to be trusted. An attitude largely created by the 20th century advertising business and the invention of planned obsolesence. An encouraging of "independence" which is fragmenting society into atomised consumers with little thought beyond procure/consume/discard/procure/cosume/discard....

 

[Pompidou]

I'll have to dig up this sign I saw on the Internet some time ago. It was a photo of the running of the bulls in Spain, with the caption, "Tradition: Just because you've always done it, doesn't make it smart." I thought it pretty well encapsulated my view. If the things people here can't stand become considered tradition some time from now, will they demand the same inherent respect? "For fifty years at least, a man's worn his pants around his ankles if he wanted to call himself a somebody," you might say to your great great grand kids, should science hopefully let us live so long. "Well, boy, it's simple. Why would a fellow want to wear underwear where no one can see it?" you might say, matter of factly when challenged. "It's just how we've always done it."

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

You forgot to add "you won't mind since I am there and it is the thought that counts. It only matters that I am a good person on the inside." :rofl:

The only thing is that many of us, myself included, are not too particularly inclined to don the hip boots and waders necessary for embarking on such a "treasure hunt."

 

[Undertow]

I think in this case, the person would not be allowed on stage by the person running the ceremony...because the convention is to wear your gown while getting your diploma. By contrast, at church there is no rule that you wear one exact specific garment...

There is no rule to wear a cap and gown during your graduation ceremony. You're expected to wear them. No one will shut down the ceremony should you decide to remove them. There aren't any laws, there aren't any guards with guns, or nannies with paddles. You're an adult and you're expected to wear them.

But that really isn't the point. You're striking a contrast between a single event which has one particular "uniform", versus another event which has a variety of possibilities (which, by the way, one could argue does in fact have a particular uniform - also known as one's "Sunday Best").

The idea here isn't about WHAT to where, but WHY to wear it. Who cares WHAT Joe Catholic is wearing, WHY is he wearing it? Did he show up to services in his lawn clothes because he's too damned lazy to dress himself properly, or because he could care less what anyone else thinks, or because he feels there's no gravity to the situation? Or is it because every last one of his suits is at the cleaners?

I get it. What would [enter prophet] say? Would they shun you from their midst? Good question, and perhaps some of these modern day "what's in my heart" t-shirt wearing slobs should consider their prophet's reaction. As far as Christianity is concerned, Pride and Sloth are two heavy sins to carry around one's neck. As Lizzie has already pointed out, it has more to do with humility and less to do with what [one] can afford.

Should someone attend a social function, especially one involving their god, dressed like a beggar? Not if they can help it. If they want god to see what's in their heart instead of what's on their back, stay home and worship. Church is an inherently social function and should not be treated like an afternoon spent drinking beer and eating pretzels on the couch.

 

[jamespowers]

There is no rule to wear a cap and gown during your graduation ceremony. You're expected to wear them. No one will shut down the ceremony should you decide to remove them. There aren't any laws, there aren't any guards with guns, or nannies with paddles. You're an adult and you're expected to wear them.

But that really isn't the point. You're striking a contrast between a single event which has one particular "uniform", versus another event which has a variety of possibilities (which, by the way, one could argue does in fact have a particular uniform - also known as one's "Sunday Best").

The idea here isn't about WHAT to where, but WHY to wear it. Who cares WHAT Joe Catholic is wearing, WHY is he wearing it? Did he show up to services in his lawn clothes because he's too damned lazy to dress himself properly, or because he could care less what anyone else thinks, or because he feels there's no gravity to the situation? Or is it because every last one of his suits is at the cleaners?

I get it. What would [enter prophet] say? Would they shun you from their midst? Good question, and perhaps some of these modern day "what's in my heart" t-shirt wearing slobs should consider their prophet's reaction. As far as Christianity is concerned, Pride and Sloth are two heavy sins to carry around one's neck. As Lizzie has already pointed out, it has more to do with humility and less to do with what wan can afford.

Should someone attend a social function, especially one involving their god, dressed like a beggar? Not if they can help it. If they want god to see what's in their heart instead of what's on their back, stay home and worship. Church is an inherently social function and should not be treated like an afternoon spent drinking beer and eating pretzels on the couch.

:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[LizzieMaine]

I get it. What would [enter prophet] say? Would they shun you from their midst? Good question, and perhaps some of these modern day "what's in my heart" t-shirt wearing slobs should consider their prophet's reaction. As far as Christianity is concerned, Pride and Sloth are two heavy sins to carry around one's neck. As Lizzie has already pointed out, it has more to do with humility and less to do with what wan can afford.

Should someone attend a social function, especially one involving their god, dressed like a beggar? Not if they can help it. If they want god to see what's in their heart instead of what's on their back, stay home and worship. Church is an inherently social function and should not be treated like an afternoon spent drinking beer and eating pretzels on the couch.

Where your heart is, so also will your treasure be. If you're just going to church out of a sense of obligation and can't wait to get home to watch the ballgame, it doesn't matter what you're wearing -- the only one you're fooling is yourself.

James (the brother of Jesus, not Powers) wrote to the congregations of his time that it was wrong to show favoritism to the wealthy and the well-dressed just because they were wealthy and well dressed, or to discriminate against the poor and poorly-dressed. But Jesus himself advised that "when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled." When you're anybody's guest, you shouldn't go expecting your preferences on anything to be deferred to, because that's an essentially selfish spirit.

 

[jamespowers]

I think the final word of how to dress for mass is correctly addressed by the clergy itself so without further ado I give you the parish response:


Why do so many parishioners come to Sunday Mass informally clad?

Wittingly or unwillingly, one’s attire reflects a certain mood or attitude. We many not be dining at 24 Sussex Dr. or attending a royal wedding, but if the occasion is one of celebration or solemnity, it behooves us to dress accordingly. Some judges, to underscore the gravity of jury duty, let it be known that they expect coat and tie of male jurors and a comparable outfit for women. Even off-track betting parlours have been known to require jackets of their patrons. Why, then do so many of our parishioners come to Sunday Mass informally clad? One would think they had it from God himself that he is pleased to accept them “as they are”.
Informality is, of course, much in vogue these days in a variety of venues. Prominent corporations have introduced “Dress-down days” for their employees, and increased casualness has long been a feature of concerts, operas, and other social events.
Dressing down is even regarded by some as a mark of American-style democracy. Actually, the roots of the custom are distinctly foreign. It was the practice of French revolutionaries, and later on of Communist commissars to wear their radicalism on the sleeve; Lenin caps, Mao jackets, and Castro fatigues are items of clothing often worn by admirers. Although claiming to be on the side of the common man, what distinguishes Napoleonic France, Soviet Russia, mainland China, and Communist Cuba is their hostility to organized religion.
Academics have been known to parade their contempt for traditional values by sipping coffee in the classroom and putting their feet on the furniture. At the same time, millionaires wishing to blend into the crowd have taken to wearing blue jeans.
The point is this: informality makes a statement, and the question is whether we, as Catholics, wish to be identified with the kind of statement it so often makes.
One can go further. We all have a mission to evangelize, and what better way is there than to make people aware of where we are heading on Sunday and how we feel about it? Without uttering a single word, our “Sunday Best” proclaims the good news. Why should people feel, when they scan the streets on Sunday, that no one is going to church? We see Jehovah’s Witnesses on street corners and observant Jews en route to the synagogue. But where is the Catholic presence? With Roman collars harder and harder to spot, how is the average person to know that vocations are far from dead and that our faith is alive? One of the very first things a militantly materialist government does in trying to undermine belief in God, is to prohibit priests and nuns from wearing clerical garb. In this way, religion is made to appear passe. Shouldn’t we who are fortunate enough to live in a land of freedom avail ourselves of the opportunity afforded by such freedom? No one is obliged to rush out and buy a tuxedo for Sunday Mass, but one should dress at least as formally as one would dress for work and, if possible, more formally.
If Bible verses are needed, one can turn to Psalm 29:2 which exhorts the faithful to “give to the Lord the glory due his name” and to “worship the Lord in holy attire.” According to God’s specification, his temple was to be as beautiful as human hands could make it, and his priests were to be outfitted in the finest cloth. Surely, if the Almighty expressed concern about the appearance of his hours of worship and his priests, he cares about how members of the rank and file present themselves, for as Vatical Council II affirmed, men and women of the laity share in the priestly ministry. When Moses stood before the burning bush, God directed him to “Remove your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
Later, at the foot of Mount Sinai, he instructed his people through Moses to wash their clothes. Once again, appearances mattered, and for a very simple reason: one of the purposes of public worship, as highlighted in the Bible, is to give glory to God (Haggai 1:8). SO WE ASK OURSELVES “DOES MY DRESS AND APPEARANCE GIVE GLORY TO GOD?”
Such glory is enhanced when one bows or genuflects, just as it is diminished when one crosses one’s legs, drapes one’s arms over the back of the pew, or converses unnecessarily with another in church.
Jesus himself was not one to dress down if the evidence at hand is any indication. The kind of tunic he wore, and for which the Roman soldiers threw dice on Calvary, was seamless and therefore of considerable value for the period in which he lived. There is also the story he told about a man thrown out of a banquet for want of proper dress. Admittedly, the parable is concerned in the first instance with “spiritual attire,” but the Lord’s choice of imagery is noteworthy because it suggests where he stands on collateral issues. Recall, too, the forcefulness with which he demanded that the temple remain “a house of prayer.” The occasion on which he spoke these words was the only time during his public ministry when he is on record as having resorted to physical violence - driving the money changers out of the temple.
Naysayers claim that a return to formality would usher in another Gilded Age of social vanity and the flaunting of fortune. This seems unlikely, however, in this age of equality. And even if it were so, is there not more than a little vanity and presumption in expecting God to “take us as we are?”
Another argument dear to the heart of skeptics is that formality penalizes the poor. Informality, they submit, is the great equalizer. This may have been true in the past, but no longer, for the real cost of clothing over the years has steadily declined. More important that the price of clothing is its neatness, cleanliness and modesty. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.
In sum, there are many compelling reasons to dress up, rather than down, for church. The Mass is a stupendous miracle, and those who partake of the heavenly banquet are tremendously privileged. Polite decorum and appropriate dress are simply one way of acknowledging this privilege. But when all is said and done, we need to get back to plain common sense and to behaviour that would seem, as well as be, “right and proper.”

 

[Espee]

A T-shirt emblazoned
FOLLOW ME TO ST. [------]
would also tell people where you're going.

 

[Noirblack]

There is no rule to wear a cap and gown during your graduation ceremony. You're expected to wear them. No one will shut down the ceremony should you decide to remove them. There aren't any laws, there aren't any guards with guns, or nannies with paddles. You're an adult and you're expected to wear them.

But that really isn't the point. You're striking a contrast between a single event which has one particular "uniform", versus another event which has a variety of possibilities (which, by the way, one could argue does in fact have a particular uniform - also known as one's "Sunday Best").

The idea here isn't about WHAT to where, but WHY to wear it. Who cares WHAT Joe Catholic is wearing, WHY is he wearing it? Did he show up to services in his lawn clothes because he's too damned lazy to dress himself properly, or because he could care less what anyone else thinks, or because he feels there's no gravity to the situation? Or is it because every last one of his suits is at the cleaners?

I get it. What would [enter prophet] say? Would they shun you from their midst? Good question, and perhaps some of these modern day "what's in my heart" t-shirt wearing slobs should consider their prophet's reaction. As far as Christianity is concerned, Pride and Sloth are two heavy sins to carry around one's neck. As Lizzie has already pointed out, it has more to do with humility and less to do with what wan can afford.

Should someone attend a social function, especially one involving their god, dressed like a beggar? Not if they can help it. If they want god to see what's in their heart instead of what's on their back, stay home and worship. Church is an inherently social function and should not be treated like an afternoon spent drinking beer and eating pretzels on the couch.

To your first paragraph - I never used the word rule. I used the word convention. I never mentioned laws, guards, guns, nannies, and so on. In fact, I said that because it is the convention that one wears a gown that if would cause a stir is someone went through the graduation ceremony without a gown. You and I actually agree on this point.

To your second paragraph - You are right. I am saying there is a difference between something like a graduation ceremony and a church service. With something like a graduation ceremony there is a specific convention that your wear a gown and mortarboard. If one doesn't do that, it is much clearer that it is a violation of that convention. But with a church ceremony, is it so clear that jeans and a t-shirt are so inappropriate? Would all the suit and dress wearing crowd really mind? I could imagine that even some of the dressed up people would be happy to welcome anyone into their congregation, regardless of dress. I have no absolute proof of that, but I know some people have open hearts and they want the greatness of God to fill your spirit.

To your third paragraph - You note the difference between what they are wearing and why they are wearing it. I think the important question is why did the person come to church. If he or she is there to worship in fellowship then I say welcome them aboard.

To your fourth paragraph - You mention that pride and sloth are sinful. So what does sinful pride have to do with not coming to church all dressed up? The type of pride that is a sin is the lack of humility before God. It is the kind of thinking that your are better than God. I can't see how not dressing up for church is saying your a better than God. That is really a stretch at best. I truly believe that you can go to church, not be dressed up, and know your place in relation to God. As for sloth, as far as it is a sin, isn't because one is lazy or inactive in regard to spiritual activities? Again, I can't see how that relates to dress specifically. Dress is a corporeal activity.

To your fifth paragraph - would you really ban someone from attending church because you deem they are not dressed properly?

As a general point, your beef isn't really with me. It is with the people who go to church not properly dressed. I am only saying I won't look down on such people or judge them harshly. If you really think that improper dress in church is so bad, you need to address the people in your church who you think are not dressed correctly.

 

[jamespowers]

A T-shirt emblazoned
FOLLOW ME TO ST. [------]
would also tell people where you're going.

 

[jamespowers]

To your second paragraph - You are right. I am saying there is a difference between something like a graduation ceremony and a church service. With something like a graduation ceremony there is a specific convention that your wear a gown and mortarboard. If one doesn't do that, it is much clearer that it is a violation of that convention. But with a church ceremony, is it so clear that jeans and a t-shirt are so inappropriate? Would all the suit and dress wearing crowd really mind? I could imagine that even some of the dressed up people would be happy to welcome anyone into their congregation, regardless of dress. I have no absolute proof of that, but I know some people have open hearts and they want the greatness of God to fill your spirit.

See above.

 

[William Stratford]

I wonder if this illustrates a divide in opinion between two key groups of people who like vintage cloths etc - one being the group who see it more as an anti-modern expression of individual identity (punks, akin to steampunks), and the other who actively embrace an older ethic of a more conservative (small "c", please no party politics!!) way of living and then the clothes, music etc which spring from that?

 

[rue]

I wonder if this illustrates a divide in opinion between two key groups of people who like vintage cloths etc - one being the group who see it more as an anti-modern expression of individual identity (punks, akin to steampunks), and the other who actively embrace an older ethic of a more conservative (small "c", please no party politics!!) way of living and then the clothes, music etc which spring from that?

Yes I believe so and that divide has been getting on my last nerve lately, as it has a few others here on the FL.