The lack of Pedestrian culture in America

[Miss Neecerie]

Too many people are afraid that any substantial spending for the common good will turn Americans into European social-welfare paupers, living in crumbling shoebox apartments, puttering around in toy cars, living on gluey cheese mushroom cutlets and lukewarm beer and not going to any particular church on Sundays. Folks, it ain't gonna happen - especially not if we can figure some way to make big business pay a fairer share.

mmm cheese mushroom cutlets.....

 

[Fletch]

You notice I didn't mention any meat under that cheese 'n shrooms.

 

[ShooShooBaby]

You notice I didn't mention any meat under that cheese 'n shrooms.

sounds perfect to me!

 

[ferryengr]

Let's see how many of you have parked your cars. Raise your hand if you walk or ride your bike to work or school.

 

[carebear]

Too many people are afraid that any substantial spending for the common good will turn Americans into European social-welfare paupers, living in crumbling shoebox apartments, puttering around in toy cars, living on gluey cheese mushroom cutlets and lukewarm beer and paying 4000% Goods & Services Tax on it all. Folks, it ain't gonna happen that way - especially not if we can figure some way to make big business pay a fairer share.

If we must tax, why do we tax income rather than consumption?

Who exactly gets to determine the "common good", the people who actually pay for it or everyone who will receive it?

Why is charity made mandatory and coercive when it should be individual and voluntary?

Who decided the practical (financial) extent of my "moral obligation to others" could be dictated to me at the point of a (not so) figurative gun?

Who determines what a "fairer share" is?

Who gets to define what a "big business" is and what stops them from just taking their jobs to where taxes are lower or, if they can't, just closing up shop when the benefits no longer outweigh the cost?

There are far more weighty questions in play than some straw man fear of "European-ness".

 

[ShooShooBaby]

Let's see how many of you have parked your cars. Raise your hand if you walk or ride your bike to work or school.

*raises hand*

my car is permanently parked at the curb, since it won't pass a smog check and i don't have the money to fix it. it was meant to be a "once-in-a-while" vehicle anyway, but now i can't even register it

 

[ferryengr]

That's great Shooshoo. I ride my bike to work on nice days. Wakes you up!

 

[ScionPI2005]

In Albuquerque, its pretty much impossible to get around the city if you don't have your own car. The city buses here are pretty pathetic; they never show up according to schedule. Back in high school, a friend of mine and I sometimes had to wait forty-five minutes for a bus to show up; and a few times, one never did and we ended up walking all the way back home.

As far as being a pedestrian goes here, forget it! The drivers here are insane and will run you down before they even think of looking out for you. Not to mention, the lack of sidewalks adds to this.

Guess that explains why I've had a car ever since high school ended.

 

[Fletch]

There are far more weighty questions in play than some straw man fear of "European-ness".

Undoubtedly. But it has a certain zingy punch, you must admit.

I'd rather not get into the weighty questions here, as it's both a bit OT and likely to make me wax even more partisan than I already have.

 

[reetpleat]

The number 1 cause of corporation flight from Philadelphia has been the ***damned city wage tax. It hits every worker as a penalty for the priviledge of working within city limits. The middle-class can't afford the bite of a 4% tax increase that can be avoided by moving two inches outside the Quaker City.

The problem isn't white flight anymore. Its anybody-with-a-job flight, I-would-rather-put-this-money-in-my-kids'-college-fund flight. The black suburbs are also growing quite quickly, prices swirling upward even in this real estate slow-down.

You said increased taxes don't cause city collapse. I'm suggesting maybe they do.

Hmm, I think if Alaska could get over that whole "freakish cold" thing I would totally join Carebear's libertarian utopia.lol

-Viola

While what you say is true, taxes are not arbitrary. The cities need to tax to provide resources for an old infrastructure, and a poverty ridden populace. This is just the reality. It is easy for new suburbs with a strong tax base, new infrastructure and relatively walthy people to lower taxes and attract business. This of course robs the cities even more of tax revenue and of the middle class who can pay taxes, leaving nothing but the poor to try to shoulder the costs. The worst cas is local school taxes. The schools in the inner cities are a disgrace to the nation.

You can't blame business or people for making these choices. The only two solutions are to either change the tax structure to share it equally amongst all areas, schools etc, or to abandon the cities to decay, crime and bankrupt governments, this creating a wsteland ghetto.

I for one support the first solution. Taxes need to not be tied so closely to the general municipality or area. It makes it too easy for business and people who can to relocate. We need to look at hte bigger picture and stop the "I got mine, let them worry about hemselves" attitude we seem to be developing in this country. Of course I am not ascribing this attitude to anyone on this board. Just in general.

 

[reetpleat]

Too many people are afraid that any substantial spending for the common good will turn Americans into European social-welfare paupers, living in crumbling shoebox apartments, puttering around in toy cars, living on gluey cheese mushroom cutlets and lukewarm beer and paying 4000% Goods & Services Tax on it all. Folks, it ain't gonna happen that way - especially not if we can figure some way to make big business pay a fairer share.

And let's face it. FOr all the problems of life in Europe, many people there and here seem to think they have apretty good quality of life. maybe we need to not get so caught up in preserving everything about our way of life.

 

[Fletch]

Nobody likes change, and America's got the money and power to preserve the status quo indefinitely - or at least until it's no longer profitable.

We're also a much bigger country than any in Europe. Unless there is a military threat to us, we have never turned on a dime, and we never will. We sure don't do it for the sake of the economy or the environment - why would we do it for something as intangible as quality of life?

 

[carebear]

This country didn't " recently develop" the ideas of individuals being free to make their own way or enter into voluntary associations to better their own lives by their own definitions, that's how it was founded. The idea that government exists to "better peoples lot" is the recent invention.

The only defensible purpose of an American governmental body at any level is to exist in the most minimal way possible so as to ensure the preexisting rights of individuals to be left alone and pursue their own definition of happiness without interference by others, not to "provide to each according to his need".

But I've gotten waaaaay too political, so I'm done in this thread.

 

[RedPop4]

In order for "big business to pay their fair share" whatever the hell THAT means, they'll have to find that money somewhere. And that somewhere will be from those who "consume" from big business. That's right, the consumer. That'd be those of US who buy whatever that business is selling. No matter which way you slice it you will pay, unless there's a VAT as the ONLY taxation.

You can't avoid a VAT, however you can reduce it by buying less.
Gas prices? You notice everyone is screaming for the oil companies to stop gouging, the retailers to stop raising prices. No one screams about the commodities market that drives up the price. You hear certain members of the U. S. Congress excoriating "big oil" and what have you. What about gas taxes? If they were SO CONCERNED, they'd repeal some of the worst excise and other Federal taxes. Will they do that? Hell no. No tax. once imposed, is EVER repealed or rescinded.

 

[Fletch]

All I'll say in response is this.

We're a big country, but dammit, each of us is still just one little person. One person can only do so much in a big, spread-out, socially isolated country.

I think too much of the philosophy of self-sufficiency assumes that one is in a small, pre-industrial country where people all know each other and say howdy over the crackerbarrel. We ain't going back there, and people need to realize that.

 

[jamespowers]

All I'll say in response is this.

We're a big country, but dammit, each of us is still just one little person. One person can only do so much in a big, spread-out, socially isolated country.

I think too much of the philosophy of self-sufficiency assumes that one is in a small, pre-industrial country where people all know each other and say howdy over the crackerbarrel. We ain't going back there, and people need to realize that.

One person can always make a difference one way or another.
There really are self sufficient places in this country. You just haven't seen them yet. They are exactly as you describe. They are wonderful places all over America. You don't have to go back anywhere to find them.
The problem with society today is that no one wants to take responsibility for their actions that will enable them to be self sufficient. That's just too much work. Just call in the government to think or do it instead. :eusa_doh:
This is all off topic however and best to keep it pedestrian.

Regards,

J

 

[Pilgrim]

I'd actually like to BE a pedestrian more than I can. As I said earlier, the systems aren't there in my town for local transport, and getting 60 miles to Denver without driving is practically impossible.

To me, the next 10-20 years of planning and debate about public transportation are going to be very interesting. We've seen many of the opinions that will influence this debate played out in this thread.

I just know that I'd rather ride a train from here to Denver than drive. And on the days my schedule doesn't demand a car for meetings and errands, I'd rather ride a bus to work than drive. But the first option doesn't exist, and the second option takes me 4x as long as driving.

 

[Fletch]

You know, there are folks who would call you more selfish for wanting to take trains (especially where there aren't any) than for driving your own car.

 

[Twitch]

After an interesting romp that I've enjoyed reading here the fact remains that there are more areas in the US than fewer where public transportation will never work. Relative to the total number of municipalities on the map there are but a handfull where anything beyond an car actually functions as designed.

We may tout NYC, Chicago, Seattle or whatnot as having no need for a car due to great public transit but the vast majority of semi-rural areas, towns, and even smaller cities can't function without autos.

As Pilgrim mentions there is no way to get from Ft. Collins to Denver without a car, period. And that scenario is repeated myriad times throughout the country to various degrees depending on the geography.

There are innumberable locales in the US where public transpotation has never existed, is not feasible due to cost, and never will exist. Sure, we can demonize the auto but for most folks it fulfills the requirements of convenient, reliable transportation in this country that could not be replicated by any means.

 

[Pilgrim]

You know, there are folks who would call you more selfish for wanting to take trains (especially where there aren't any) than for driving your own car.

I know. Ain't I just a rebel??