The Johnny Ringo Hat

[Earp]

Just two more reference views of the Johnny Ringo hat and then I'll wait for someone to post one they've made or purchased. These are from Mr. Knudson's website. (The URL had been posted earlier in this thread.) These views show the distressed version of the hat. There are more views at the website.

 

[DanielJones]

Now that is a great shot of Curly Bill. Too much fun.:eusa_clap

By the way there are a couple of places on line where you can get the Ringo 'Dragon' bib front shirt.fftopic:

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Benny Holiday]

"Y'all killed two Cowboys . . . "

Tombstone is one of my favourite movies of all time. All the characters are brilliant, the period authenticity is there, the story and the history are exciting, to say the least. Because of Tombstone, when the local production of Ned Kelly came out a few years back, I observed it closely for its period authenticity and storyline (the siege at Glenrowan took place on the night of 27-28 June, 1880, the Gunfight at [actually behind] the OK Corral took place on October 26, 1881). Heath Ledger and the cast did a great job portraying Australia's most famous bushranger, his associates, family and his adversaries.

Those are great screen shots Earp. I'm not gonna get started on Tuckers or Dana Delaney, 'cept to say that they're two other favourite subjects of mine as well!

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

brim turned up in front

I feel that I am stating what should be obvious. Not everything is about style, sometimes things happen. As I stated before the curl in the brim more likely than not was an occurrence, not a style statement. I submit the same is true of the turned up front brim. Am I the only one who has ever faced a headwind and had the front of my brim blow upwards? Once again, we are talking about cowboys, they ride horses, this causes the same effect as a headwind. If a rider has a hat, that did not have stiffener in it, or an older hat that has lost its body, guess what. It will fold up. Both the "swoop" and the upward turned brim may have later become a style, but more than likely started out as an occurrence.

 

[DanielJones]

You're absolutely right there Bud! It was an occurrence like a head wind or just grabbing that particular portion of the brim all the time to swat at cows. It also went by another name, the 'bar room crease', for obvious reasons. When a cowboy or miner got too pickled and couldn't stand no more and fell over they landed on their hats (and head lying within) smashing the brim. At least that's how that particular mythology goes. But hey, now we can call it a style and give it a name & everything. That's just what we do. Besides, most things that we classify as 'styles' happened by accident anyway. And many fashions came from items that were necessities. The common folk saw them, thought they were cool and adapted them to be a fashion statement.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[Pat_H]

I feel that I am stating what should be obvious. Not everything is about style, sometimes things happen. As I stated before the curl in the brim more likely than not was an occurrence, not a style statement. I submit the same is true of the turned up front brim. Am I the only one who has ever faced a headwind and had the front of my brim blow upwards? Once again, we are talking about cowboys, they ride horses, this causes the same effect as a headwind. If a rider has a hat, that did not have stiffener in it, or an older hat that has lost its body, guess what. It will fold up. Both the "swoop" and the upward turned brim may have later become a style, but more than likely started out as an occurrence.

Living in a highly windy region, and riding horses fairly frequently, I've actually found that a brim will rarely bend up if its on a heavier felt hat, and if the hat is not fairly worn, it won't blow up at all. One of mine will, but it's 20 years old and has been subjected to a lot of use. A lighter felt, however, might very well do that.

Back in this era, some hats simply seem to have been shaped that way from the onset. That brim style is fairly common, in a less dramatic form, amongst M1911 Campaign hats in the teens. I've sometimes wondered, in that case, if that shape was used in order to assure that the soldier had adequate room to sight his rifle. I know that even a fairly moderate dip down in a birm can interfere with that.

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

The cowboys of the days of old hat 1 hat and wore it from sun up to sun down. The amount of wear it took you 20 years to accomplish more than likely took an average cowboy, but a year or two. Another point is, one can not compare a modern felt to a vintage felt, they are two different animals. I have a Stetson that will fold up when on a cabless International Harvester 856 and top speed is no where near what my quarter horse can do. The hat is older and this is the point. The question has been posed on here many a time, as to why cowboy hats have so much stiffeners as compared to a dress hat. Gee, could it be that this is one reason why. I am not here to quarrel, I will say however trail riding on the weekend, in no way compares to the day in day out punishment that a hat must endure of a working cowboy. Sadly, those days are behind me, but they are not forgotten.

 

[Pat_H]

The cowboys of the days of old hat 1 hat and wore it from sun up to sun down. The amount of wear it took you 20 years to accomplish more than likely took an average cowboy, but a year or two. Another point is, one can not compare a modern felt to a vintage felt, they are two different animals. I have a Stetson that will fold up when on a cabless International Harvester 856 and top speed is no where near what my quarter horse can do. The hat is older and this is the point. The question has been posed on here many a time, as to why cowboy hats have so much stiffeners as compared to a dress hat. Gee, could it be that this is one reason why. I am not here to quarrel, I will say however trail riding on the weekend, in no way compares to the day in day out punishment that a hat must endure of a working cowboy. Sadly, those days are behind me, but they are not forgotten.

All excellent points.

I'm not here to quarrel either, but I should have noted I've also worked as a cowhand, so that hat, while a very good one, is and was a working hat. I still wear it that way, as I still raise cattle, and get in quite a bit of saddle time yet, although I now work a higher paying town job too, and don't get in nearly as much cattle time as I'd like, by quite some measure.

But, the 20 years of use, even though I have worn it sun up to sun down for days on end, plenty of times, doesn't equate to a 19th Century cowhand to be sure. It's more than trail riding use, however, although its gone up plenty of trails behind cattle. But it isn't what theirs saw.

Still, very good points (and again, I'm not here to quarrel either). And excellent comments on the older felt, which I'm not at all familiar with. And the use those hats were put to was not only much greater than most modern ones, but the hats were no doubt much more of a serious item than most are now.

 

[Pat_H]

Felt wise (if that's a term that makes sense) how were 19th Century hats different?

That is, for a good quality hat of the late 19th Century, how did they differ, in terms of felt, from a modern one?

 

[Art Fawcett]

Here's one I can answer Pat. In those days the felt was carroted with mercury which means opening up the "barbs" on the hair making it a tighter felt composition. From the hats I've owned and studied the earlier the hat, the less stiff it is with the exception of the hats that were mean't to be stiff ie: bowler, tophat, etc. In my collection I had an 1860s flat crown beaver that was butter soft even though the felt thickness was greater than that of today. I also have a stetson from the '30s that is the same softness in a western curl. Felt has changed considerably since the banning of mercury.

 

[Pat_H]

Here's one I can answer Pat. In those days the felt was carroted with mercury which means opening up the "barbs" on the hair making it a tighter felt composition. From the hats I've owned and studied the earlier the hat, the less stiff it is with the exception of the hats that were mean't to be stiff ie: bowler, tophat, etc. In my collection I had an 1860s flat crown beaver that was butter soft even though the felt thickness was greater than that of today. I also have a stetson from the '30s that is the same softness in a western curl. Felt has changed considerably since the banning of mercury.

That's very interesting, thanks.

I knew that mercury was used in making felt, and of course there's the famous example of the origin of the term "mad hatter", and that there must be some discussion of that here on the forum, but I wasn't at all sure how that impacted the hats themselves.

In that process, was all the mercury washed out?

(Funny you mention the old Fedora being so soft. I once had a beautiful fedora made in the 30s, which I ultimately traded away. It had a somewhat large crown, and was amazingly soft, in spite of having pretty thick felt. Indeed, it felt downright odd in comparison with any more recently made hat I have.)

 

[DanielJones]

I just love these educational disscussions. Very cool indeed! Thank you gentlement for your input & knowledge. And yes that is where the term 'mad hatter' did come from, at least that is what I understand in reading numerous articles & books pertaining to such subjects.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[coble]

the flipped up front brim is how i wear my stetson fedora medalist. It gives it such a unique look, that i've come to find it my favorite look. I remember watching a classic western movie when a stage coach driver took off on his coach and his hats front brim flapped back. If you think about how you can shape your hat when wet, whats not to say that the hat could have flipped up on the front while riding in the rain, and when the sun came out, it made it stay. Just my two cents. Its a really great look, and different when you put it on a fedora, i recommend people trying it, it changes the look dramatically, almost giving you a new hat.

 

[Mr. Godfrey]

Thanks for the links

Very cool Wyatt! Thanks a bunch for the screen captures, this will be a huge help. I don't know much about the hat it's self, but Tom Hirt is known as the hat maker for the movies. He had made most of the hats for Tombstone including the Johnny Rongo hat and the hats for Buck Taylor, Val Kilmer, Kurt Russell & Michael Rooker. With the exception of Kurt Russell's hat, they all had that swoop or bar room crease in the front of the brim. If you think of contacting Tom it is best to do it by letter or phone. He has an e-mail address but if you send an e-mail you will most likely get a hand written letter in return. It's just how he is, but he will respond to you, it just takes a while. Anyway, that's all I know, but you could visit his site and see some of his creations and get a better idea of what I am talking about.
http://www.tomhirt.com/index.htm

Also if you are on a budget I think that Golden Gate Western Wear makes a copy of just about any one of the Tombstone hats. I can't vouch for the quality but if you are on a budget and can't afford a custom you may want to look at these guys. Just an idea.
http://www.goldengatewesternwear.com/
Anyway, that's about all I know on this one. If there is someone else that can shed a bit more light on the subject, please do so. Knowledge is key!

Cheers!

Dan

Thanks Dan. Appriciate the links, cannot always find western hat suppliers on UK search engines.

 

[Happy Jack]

Great read!!
:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
Thanks

 

[Moviehats]

Here is one of the copies I made. I told Tom Hirt that out of respect for him, I'd make no more copies. He gave me the OK to.
https://www.facebook.com/moviehatsandmore/photos/pb.617757121601862.-2207520000.1437009209./828112847232954/?type=3&theater

 

[RJR]

Very cool!

 

[JoeyC]

About 10-15 years ago I had Tom Hirt make a couple of hats for me that are part of a collection of hats I wore during my Cowboy Action Shooting days. One is a silverbelly telescope crown hat that I have since cut down the brim from 4" to 3" and reshaped the brim, I still wear that hat on occasion and get compliments on it. The other is a black that I requested Tom duplicate a hat from the movie "The quick and the dead" that one of the characters wore, it was an asymmetrical crown similar to the Ringo hat only more pronounced, sort of a sloping telescope from side to side, one side taller then sloped with brim rolled on one side above the right temple. I forget the actors name that portrayed the character. I since also reshaped the crown on that one to a sort of Gus or Montana slope crease, though I never wear it anymore. Perhaps one day I'll reshape it to it's original as it was quite unique. I recall when I first tried to contact Tom by phone for days and no answer, finally one day he did answer, I told him I thought I had the wrong number, he said no, I was out branding cattle for a few days. I commented making hats and branding, he replied, "someone has to do it", I got a chuckle out of that. I believe since then he relocated from Arizona.

 

[Moviehats]

He is in Colorado now, but thinking of moving back to Arizona.
I think the hat you are speaking of was Lance Hendrickson's (Ace Hanlon) hat. Looked like the Billy The Kid hat Val Kilmer wore. That was why I bugged him for 2 years to teach me. He has a way of putting a dent here or a crease there to give the hat character. He has some great stories from the movies he worked with. He is hard to contact, but worth it.

 

[Moviehats]

Thank you, RJR.