The investment in vintage

[gcollins]

Gents:

One thing is a pity. Much of the high-quality and rare vintage hats (and perhaps other gear) don't seem to carry much value forward into the future. That's a pity. You see these great well-kept vintage borsos on e-bay selling for much less than a new, inferior one would cost today.

Maybe Art knows best. there can't be so many high class, 60 year old hats around that they don't carry some collectors premium? Especially with names like Borsalino.

Regards,
G

 

[Renderking Fisk]

You have to bite the bullet and come to terms with the fact that there will come a time when all the vintage lids are gone. You can either go with out wearing fedoras, or just buy new fedoras with modern hat bodies.

If a fedora is taken care of and bought from good stock, they can last forever. Well, that?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s what I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m aming for with my Akubra Deluxe: We?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll see in 50 years if anyone cares and makes a fuss about it.

 

[MK]

I don't know. Here is a vintage Borsalino that will set you back:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14065&item=8114922718&rd=1

 

[Andykev]

Originally posted by gcollins
Gents:

One thing is a pity. Much of the high-quality and rare vintage hats (and perhaps other gear) don't seem to carry much value forward into the future. That's a pity. You see these great well-kept vintage borsos on e-bay selling for much less than a new, inferior one would cost today.
Regards,
G

Ok let's talk realistic. Good Will vs. Nordstroms. MOST uninformed think of a hat from the 30-40's as "used" , "old".
It's a costume, something to use in the school play, or decorate the Halloween Scarecrow.

OK. I know that liners, sweats, and ribbon can be replaced, and the felt can be cleaned...lasting another 50 years.

But when I have had someone admire my beautiful vintage hat, and then learn it is 50 years plus old...they don't get it.

We live mostly in a disposable society. So where do you ever see T.V. repair stores, or so on, anymore?

 

[Imahomer]

I love old things. I've picked up a lot of vintage items that I know I could sell for a profit. The bottom line for me is I get things because I like them. If I can afford it and I want it, then that's all I need.

 

[gcollins]

Imahomer:

Yes, that's it, and the fact of life. Enjoy your health and what you are, because you can't take it with you.

And the fact mentioned earlier that you can buy great items cheap and sell for premium prices. I though commiserate because I am always looking for good investments in my passions--fulfills some fun needs. I do a lot with antique flutes, which are both passion and investment and a bit of business thrown in. But hats would be great if they had some value appreciation--if hats make a real comeback (dreamer!), you can bet that values of great antique hats will rise dramatically.

Guess the hat investment will have to be a business of learning to make (or commission) great hats and sell them to the filmstars and directors in China, Korea and India. Then let it all flow from there, from the best hat shop in Asia, right here in hometown Shanghai. So my friends from the FL have a mission in coming to China, just like Chicago.

:cool2:

 

[havershaw]

That Borsalino on eBay is the one Zane was offering for a little bit. He gave me the guy's contact info, but I never got in touch with him.

Looks like I didn't miss much. Nice hat, but...well, that's a little out of my price range - by about $1400.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

Re: Re: The investment in vintage

Originally posted by Andykev Ok let's talk realistic. Good Will vs. Nordstroms. MOST uninformed think of a hat from the 30-40's as "used" , "old".

We live mostly in a disposable society. So where do you ever see T.V. repair stores, or so on, anymore?

Andy... stuff from the 30's and 40's is often the RIGHT kind of used.

My wife was going on a tear about fashions?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ you buy a whole wardrobe for clothes that are only good for a year. Granted, you can still WEAR THEM next season, but with everyone obsessed with fashion and trends, you don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t dare. That goes for men AND women.

I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t care; we?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re both behind the times. I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m not alone where when I say I watch old movies between 1930 and 1947 just to see what everyone?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s wearing, regardless of the plot. I felt over dressed going out to breakfast this morning wearing slacks, dress shoes, button shirt and Akubra.

I would rather buy a good hat body then send it to be taken care of by someone who knows what they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re doing and have it restored to Golden-Era condition then spend a few M-Notes on a fedora I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve only seen pictures of on E-Bay. I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t begrudge people who do, they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re just braver then I am and have a better idea of what to look out for.

 

[Andykev]

Re: Re: Re: The investment in vintage

Originally posted by Renderking Fisk
Andy... stuff from the 30's and 40's is often the RIGHT kind of used.

** you sound like you agree with me! **
I felt over dressed going out to breakfast this morning wearing slacks, dress shoes, button shirt and Akubra.

** don't feel that way...I long ago shook off the self consciousness of wearing a fedora. I am, therefore it is. **
I would rather buy a good hat body then send it to be taken care of by someone who knows what they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re doing and have it restored to Golden-Era condition then spend a few M-Notes on a fedora I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve only seen pictures of on E-Bay.

** I have gotten my BEST vintage, rare hats from Ebay, and I only had to kiss a frog or two **

I don?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t begrudge people who do, they?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re just braver then I am and have a better idea of what to look out for.

** I only learned from reading, discussions like the Lounge here, buying hats on ebay, comparing, and meeting hatters, going to every hat shop possible : Optimo, Fino Fino, Paul's Hatworks, Hat Guys, Top Hatters, and some western stores **

 

[jamespowers]

Re: Re: The investment in vintage

Originally posted by Andykev
Ok let's talk realistic. Good Will vs. Nordstroms. MOST uninformed think of a hat from the 30-40's as "used" , "old".
It's a costume, something to use in the school play, or decorate the Halloween Scarecrow.

OK. I know that liners, sweats, and ribbon can be replaced, and the felt can be cleaned...lasting another 50 years.

But when I have had someone admire my beautiful vintage hat, and then learn it is 50 years plus old...they don't get it.

We live mostly in a disposable society. So where do you ever see T.V. repair stores, or so on, anymore?

I think you hit on the very essence of it. Most people just do not like the idea of owning a clothing item that was previously owned. I have had friends tell me this. They want a new hat. Fine. They can get a newer hat but not a better hat. It will most likely be an inferior quality hat. I laugh when they talk about buying a new Stetson or some such "brand name" talk about inferior.
If someone admires your hat then do what I do. Tell them you had it custom made. They don't know the difference and in reality it probably would take a custom hatter today to do such a job with precision.
I think the reason you do not see repair shops for TVs and such is because you can buy a new TV, VCR or whatever for what the repair would cost. Believe me, I have tried that route a few times. I suppose the same could be said for a hat but it is the quailty of the materials you start with that makes the difference there.
Our society is indeed a disposable one. That may be the problem.

Regards to all,

J

 

[The Wingnut]

I've not run into the mindset that 'new is best' very often. Usually instead of telling people what era something is from, I tell them how old it is. I had a bevy of compliments on my Royal Stetson panama last night while taking in fireworks, when I told people it was more than 60 years old, they registered expressions of shock. Same for my spectators, which are just as old.

I suppose it depends upon the audience. The recent movement towards rockabilly has given younger generations an appreciation for 'old' culture, if not items. Even the 'chopper' types like my hats and suits, and can appreciate that they're vintage. I still get called a gangster or 'Mafia guy' by people my age, though. I've got Hollywood to thank for that.

If you're seeking approval from the masses for your vintage habits, you'll get appreciation for your good taste, but they'll probably never understand the finer points of 'renew, reuse, repair'...this is indeed a throw-away society that we live in.

 

[Art Fawcett]

gentlemen,
there is truth in everthing said here. I can amplify on Andy's post in that after pushing 20yrs in the Vintage clothing business I can honestly tell you that ladies are easy to sell because they know what they like, what they look good in, and don't care that someone else wore it once. Men are just the opposite!! Now, I'm talking generalities here, but men have a "thing" about wearing "someone elses" clothing. I couldn't count how many times I have been asked " you DID dry clean them, right". As though we were rag dealers trying to pawn off crap on people. I can honestly say that this business is much tougher than selling new clothing for a number of reasons ( availability, repairing, etc) and much less appreciated in general.
G, the value of the vintage Borsalino's is WAY less on ebay than they truly should be only because there is so little info out there and the true appreciation is an aquired thing. Many people will look at price only and decide the value based on price alone. The old expression " you get what you pay for" doesn't always apply, especially when talking about vintage hats. Fortunately or unfortunately that is just the way is is. I value them much higher but at the same time I have to be reasonable in my pricing or keep the hats forever.)
OK..stepping down from the soap box now..going over to stroke my '40s Borso & calm down..

 

[Renderking Fisk]

This fits in exactly with another conversation on ?¢‚Ǩ?ìThe Raven?¢‚Ǩ?.

The Fedora Despensable?

Granted, we?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢re talking about the theroetical and a fictional character, but see how the western world?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s ?¢‚Ǩ?ìDisposible?¢‚Ǩ? mentality has infected even a Jones-fan community. I say infected because I honnestly believe our materialism is a social mental deseise.

Everything is a ?¢‚Ǩ?ìthrow-away?¢‚Ǩ? item?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ even relationships. If a marriage isn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t working, heck?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ throw it away and get a new spouse. Even Children are disposible for a length of time.

[Repeating myself from what I said on ?¢‚Ǩ?ìThe Raven?¢‚Ǩ?]
Ever see what's going at a land fill? Everyone throws a little bit away each day thinking it's "no big deal". It adds up fast. It's that arrogant and ignorant attidude of yours thats causing the planet to go to waste, throwing away ?¢‚Ǩ?ìjunk?¢‚Ǩ? because it doesn?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢t adhere to the latest ?¢‚Ǩ?ìFashion?¢‚Ǩ?.

It?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s wasteful. Do you know what goes on in making the felt for a fedora?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ and now you just want them to be disposable like a razor? It?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s pure arrogance and ignorant to just burn through the planet?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s resources like a wild fire just for convenience and fashion. And you can clean and reblock a fedora?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ an Art unto itself. (Sorry for the bad pun.)

Save the planet by conserving more and not wrap our self-worth in what we HAVE and more on what we actually ACHIEVE.

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by Art Fawcett

G, the value of the vintage Borsalino's is WAY less on ebay than they truly should be only because there is so little info out there and the true appreciation is an aquired thing. Many people will look at price only and decide the value based on price alone. The old expression " you get what you pay for" doesn't always apply, especially when talking about vintage hats.

Shhhhhh! Don't tell the people not in the know that you don't get what you pay for. It just means there is more competition out there for vintage hats. We can't have that-----You get what ypou pay for---go out and buy a new Borsalino for $600 it is just as good as the old ones. LOL LOL LOL
Seriously though, I know exactly what you mean Art--especially the part about men being more picky about obtaining vintage clothes. Actually, I don't have to even think of it because it is not likely that I am going to find a size 46 regular vintage suit all too soon.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Art Fawcett]

LOL...now THATS a challenge JP!!!
The funny thing is, we aren't asking them to wear used underwear or socks ...just shirts,ties, suits, shoes..OK..everything else!!

Ren, I can understand your post, but how did we get to saving the planet from the value ( or undervalue specifically) of Borsalinos? Whew..what a leap!!

 

[thefish]

Ren, I can understand your post, but how did we get to saving the planet from the value ( or undervalue specifically) of Borsalinos? Whew..what a leap!!

Well, in terms of importance, it's not much of a jump. I mean, c'mon! We ARE talking about Borsalinos!

 

[Art Fawcett]

True Fish, what was I thinking??

 

[jamespowers]

Originally posted by Art Fawcett
LOL...now THATS a challenge JP!!!
The funny thing is, we aren't asking them to wear used underwear or socks ...just shirts,ties, suits, shoes..OK..everything else!!

Ren, I can understand your post, but how did we get to saving the planet from the value ( or undervalue specifically) of Borsalinos? Whew..what a leap!!

Art, funny you should say that because a friend of mine just said wearing a used hat is like wearing used underwear. What a nut! What do you expect from the Felix Ungerish sort anyway? LOL LOL Does anyone ever have pause about buying a used car as they do with used clothes? I mean really think about it. You only wear clothes say to go out from dinner and movie or dancing etc. You take them off after you are done. Sometimes cars are used for what comes after when you are done. LOL LOL I am sorry if I am ruining the used car market but it is something to think about. If there is a market for used cars then what is different about vintage clothes? You can clean clothes easily enough but it is not likely you are going to throw the backseat into the washing machine.
As for the vintage Borsalinos, we need to think of it this way: We are saving the planet for the Borsalino wearers of the world.

Regards to all,

J

 

[BD Jones]

Originally posted by jamespowers
Does anyone ever have pause about buying a used car as they do with used clothes? I mean really think about it. You only wear clothes say to go out from dinner and movie or dancing etc. You take them off after you are done. Sometimes cars are used for what comes after when you are done. LOL LOL I am sorry if I am ruining the used car market but it is something to think about. If there is a market for used cars then what is different about vintage clothes? You can clean clothes easily enough but it is not likely you are going to throw the backseat into the washing machine.

Now that's something that doesn't show up on a Carfax report.LOL

 

[havershaw]

I have always been a thrift-store shopper, not so much for the sake of value, but more for the fact that used stuff looks cooler. When I was a kid, and you got a new pair of tennis shoes, there was always that week or two of self-consciousness and (sometimes) even ridicule from your friends until your shoes broke in and stopped blinding folks. I guess I always thought that thrift store stuff had more character.

My folks do not understand this. They continually ask why anyone would ever shop at a thrift store (or to adopt their vernacular, second-hand store ) when they didn't actually have to.

Since I have started to wear vintage (and I mean stuff that's really obviously vintage), I get less grief about it, either because they sort of look at it as "he wears antiques" or "he's almost 31, I guess there's no talking sense to him."

And I do wear 40s-50s boxer shorts and socks. (Might as well go whole hog, if you're going to go at all, I say.) I stick with NOS, for those items, though.

One more item, regarding a few of RF's comments about the lottery and crapshoot known as eBay: I have to admit (and I only did so after reading your post) that the hunt for a good hat is a gigantic portion of the fun to me. Sure, I've got my share of stinkers, but when you grab a Stetson Twenty for $25.00 because the photo looked crummy but you just had a feeling about it, well, there's a certain pride I take in that. The most expensive hat I've ever bought was my Akubra. The next expensive was a vintage Borsalino (my finest hat, I think) which, when the bidding frenzy was over, still only cost me $85 (including shipping). Last holiday season, I was saving for an Optimo, but I ended up using those savings on a ton of vintage hats on eBay. I did get some dogs, but for the price of an Optimo, I got probably fifteen or twenty hats whose quality rivals, if not beats, Optimo's (not an Optimo slam, certainly, but we all know about vintage felt vs. new felt). But these hats have one added element: character, and the fact that they were born and circulated in an era I wish I lived in. A new hat will adopt character, certainly, but for me (and I think this is my whole point), I like the history and character of vintage stuff, be it clothes, cars, furniture, or whatever. Pretty much any item I need to buy, I try to buy a vintage version of it, if I can find it and it's applicable. I would just rather own and use something that's already been around the block a few times. I like the built-in character it's got. I also think the quality and craftsmanship of vinatge items are hard to find today. I also think the styling and sensibilities of yesteryear appeal to me far more than anything at my local department store.

That having been said...I am trying to save for an Optimo again anyway. It won't hurt to have one or two hats start their journey through life with me.