The hat and the patio

[jamespowers]

So, splitting hairs. Mr. Powers, it seems you would agree with my mother. Is that right? The dinner was neither informal nor particularly formal - some men were wearing sandals, which I think is ruder than wearing a hat and more disgusting to boot (the subject of another thread perhaps... but I digress). Can anyone save my sanity here? Does anybody know the "rules" for dining outside in, say, Italy or France where there is a long history of public patio use as opposed to UK or NA where dining outside more often means in someone's private back garden.

I do indeed agree with your mother in that case. One removes a hat at the dinner table that is all there is to it. I do grant exemptions to a picnic table though. That is the least formal and it is indeed out in the open air. I have several pictures of family members around a picnic table in the park that still have their hats on. I can live with that but I would remove it myself.
To answer Marc, a man removes his hat around a woman to reveal his identity and show that he is not armed or harbors ill intent. It goes back the knights opening their helmet face plate or taking the helmet off completely to show that he was who he was. It reduced the chances of fakery at a joust or other type of competition. The helmet was also removed indoors and at the dinner table because you cannot eat with it on very easily.
The Bible also makes reference to hat wearing protocol but I cannot find the correct passage at the moment.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Bargepole]

The Hatgorithm

Does anybody know the "rules" for dining outside in, say, Italy or France where there is a long history of public patio use

In my experience, it's a complicated algorithm and one you get to internalise after a while... but more or less as follows:

FRANCE: In a city at a pavement cafe, if drinking coffee or having a light lunch with men: hat on. If having a formal meal, or coffee with women present: hat off. If the tables are covered by an awning, parasols or whatever: hat off, generally speaking.

ITALY: The same, except that in the daytime in summer at lunch, a panama is kept on even when there are sunshades. But in a courtyard, hat off as a courtyard is theoretically indoors.

GREECE: Hat on at all times with men. Hat off at all times with women, except if in the blazing sun. But if simply having coffee or an ouzo with women and if the sun is shining, hat stays on. HOWEVER in the Greek islands (or at least Paxos, where we have a house) nobody wears a hat after dark in summer.

ENGLAND: At the races, hats stay on unless you see someone who you intend to talk to -- in which case you remove your lid and hold it before you, as an indication that you are going to come over to talk to them (or that they should come over to talk to you). Hats always come off indoors, whatever the circumstances.

AUSTRALIA: In the cities, same as England. In the bush, hats stay on at all times unless you are eating inside someone's house.

I wonder what other customs there are? It's rather interesting. And a minefield. Basically, possession of a lid increases one's potential for giving offence...

 

[mikepara]

Mess rules

Hat etiquette lives on.

No hats to be worn in the Mess. (Officers or Sergeants and Warrent Officers Mess.) Period. Hats off at the door on entering extra duties to be had if caught.

Mess Dress is hatless for this very reason.

This is so ingrained that its still not even printed on the Mess rules.

 

[jamespowers]

Hat etiquette lives on.

No hats to be worn in the Mess. (Officers or Sergeants and Warrent Officers Mess.) Period. Hats off at the door on entering extra duties to be had if caught.

Mess Dress is hatless for this very reason.

This is so ingrained that its still not even printed on the Mess rules.

Sounds good to me. Extra duties even.
Interesting how it becomes second nature after a time.

Regards,

J

P.S. Welcome to the Lounge. :eusa_clap