The Goodwear Kool-Aid

[Senicko_Spain]

My apologies to Paddy, FL and Senicko for any unhelpful comments I have made.

I did not mean them as a personal attack, but felt that the conversation may slp in the direction of previous VLJ debates.

I'm sorry I articulated that badly the first time.

Also.. sorry I've been quiet, I wasn't avoiding the thread, I've had to replace my computer, so have been offline!

rufus

Nothing was said to offend me, you were being honest and provided me with constructive criticism, so as far as I'm concerned you did no wrong. I don't partake in VLJ like debates, but I do like to play devils advocate and make interesting conversation. As mentioned before, I like JC and admire him greatly, I was only posing the question many wonder but few want to ask.

 

[Feraud]

If there is one thing we seem to like at the Lounge is discussion and nitpicking details.

As mentioned before, I like JC and admire him greatly, I was only posing the question many wonder but few want to ask.

I cannot say I know of many Lounge members who are wondering this question but it is valid. Based on the replies I think the GW stock has jumped up a few points!

 

[Senicko_Spain]

If there is one thing we seem to like at the Lounge is discussion and nitpicking details.



I cannot say I know of many Lounge members who are wondering this question but it is valid. Based on the replies I think the GW stock has jumped up a few points!

See, now we know.

 

[Dudleydoright]

Good Wear

I've had a couple of John's jackets and sold them on as they haven't lived up to my expectations based on coments from the VLJ forum. For me the hides weren't quite right, the knits weren't as good as ELC or Aero or the Jap' makers. They may have been test jackets and that may have been why they were up for grabs in the first place.

Beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder as is so often the case. Personally I think you can leave 'authentic' at the door the instant you have it made to your measurements. What you get that route is 'authentic looking'.
I love A-2's but I look like a sack of poo in them and I'm not going to get one custom made and then crow about how authentic it IS.

Perhaps John's jackets have imporved over time. I certainly love the look of his goat Donigers. And for the money, his made to measure service is incredible value - even with the wait.

As to whether he is affecting other larger makers, I doubt it very much. Those guys sell a LOT of jackets and they are not interested in the 0.01% of potential buyers that John is catering to. Their customers want something NOW and so they have to make their jackets off-the-peg. They also have to make money so will always tweak their wares to suit what the majority of potential purchasers lean to.

It does make me laugh though how an at-the-time cheap(ish) jacket that was mass produced has become the Holy Grail of detail and spark for so many debates and personal feuds when the original wearers weren't bothered about the details. It was a jacket FCS !!

Dave

 

[BellyTank]

Good stuff to hear, Dudley.
My years of jacketeering are pretty much done, due to similar experiences to yours- most of the jackets don't meet all of the advertised/anticipated criteria and an A-2, as a garment can be impractical, or just damn ugly, depending on what's inside it.

Authenticity is one thing but as you point out- an A-2 does not suit every physique and some of the flight jacket fans, thousands of $$$ in, do look like overstuffed sausages. Being fat, or having a big chest and shoulders really doesn't help with a good "A-2 look"- however "authentic" the jacket may be(disregarding, of course customised dimensions and the intrinsic lack of proportion).

However, JC's A-2s are pretty cool.

Dudley, when you say: "...they haven't lived up to my expectations based on comments from the VLJ forum.", you mean your (high)expectations were based on comments read at VLJ, or your dissatisfaction was based on comments from VLJ? The first, I presume...

Otherwise I'll be interested to read such comments.


B
T

 

[Dudleydoright]

Dudley, when you say: "...they haven't lived up to my expectations based on comments from the VLJ forum.", you mean your (high)expectations were based on comments read at VLJ, or your dissatisfaction was based on comments from VLJ? The first, I presume...

Otherwise I'll be interested to read such comments.

B
T

Hi Belly Tank,
On the VLJ site Good Wear were trumpeted as the 'This Season's Must-Have Darling' as soon as the first jackets had been received. Probably way before John was ready for such accolades ! He's a great, honest, hard working guy and was , I suspect, a bit embarassed by all the hullabaloo. Shortly after the wonderous reviews, same people were selling these 'Great' new Good Wears on and buying other, later versions. I got a bit suspicious that some people were singing about RMNZ or BR then changing to Good Wear then selling on. I bought two Good wears on the basis of the reviews being SO positive and was disappointed in each case. Just coz a jacket has an original zipper, don't make it right ! I think maybe John would have been better off saving his NOS zipers until he had perfected his jacket manufacture. I supose John needed to generate capital. Both jackets I sold on made their respective owners happy and they are both still very happy and much worn. To each their own ! Sounds like I'm the problem.
Good Wear jackets are now very hard to come by so I think that John has probably ironed out most of his issues and the jackets he is turning out are spot on - for a custom made jacket As I said,, I'd love a Doniger in a standard USAAF pattern/cut in a 46". I can wait.
A lot of the early hype over Good wear was just some people getting all wet over knowing personally the maker of their jacket. An experience a lot of us have with Gary and Alan at Eastman. (Knowing, not getting wet !). The other makers are all very remote linguistically, geographically and culturally.
Good Wear are great jackets but so are RMNZ, Buzz and Eastman. Depends on what you want much as top end Mercedes and Audi and BMW's are all great and we chose our favourite according to different personal criteria.
Cheers,
Dave

 

[bobbyball]

Everything is down to the eyes of the beholder. This is then further complicated by the fact that our interest in the A-2 border are obsessive and highly critical.

My collecting days began about 25 years ago when I bought my first Aero jacket – I ordered a size 48 when really I should have ordered a 44 and I never wore it.

As time has gone by, I have become more and more particular about the detailing and fit – zips, label, epaulette width/length, pockets etc. and equally obsessed with the hide.

All I can say is having recently acquired a s/h GW Doniger – it is IMO the most accurate in terms of cut, detailing and hide. I have seen many originals but only owned two (a Roughwear and a Cable Raincoat). I had the opportunity of viewing the GW Doniger side by side to an original and the similarity was amazing. The GW has not had much wear but is getting nicely aged.

The nearest repro I have in terms of accuracy would be a McCoys Dubow.

As to Goodwear being a threat to the other premium makers I would think definately not. Their jackets are still very good and they are larger manufacturing concerns. If Goodwear were to become a large-scale business perhaps the jackets might suffer in their detailing because of economies of scale?

You do have to see these jackets in the flesh to really appreciate the differences. I also own three Buzz Rickson A-2s and they are very good but almost too perfect in their manufacture – they don’t have that 1940s vintage feel to them that the GW Doniger has.

I/We have all paid a lot of money over the years for what is essentially a very basic leather jacket so, to justify the investment, it is is essential that the details are just right – Goodwear has raised the bar (for some of us) and this is a good thing.

In conclusion, I think it is important to never forget that these jackets are reproductions and not genetically cloned. In the search for my kind of perrfection, I would say that GW are the nearest to a clone that I have come across.

 

[aswatland]

Hi Belly Tank,
On the VLJ site Good Wear were trumpeted as the 'This Season's Must-Have Darling' as soon as the first jackets had been received. Probably way before John was ready for such accolades ! He's a great, honest, hard working guy and was , I suspect, a bit embarassed by all the hullabaloo. Shortly after the wonderous reviews, same people were selling these 'Great' new Good Wears on and buying other, later versions. I got a bit suspicious that some people were singing about RMNZ or BR then changing to Good Wear then selling on. I bought two Good wears on the basis of the reviews being SO positive and was disappointed in each case. Just coz a jacket has an original zipper, don't make it right ! I think maybe John would have been better off saving his NOS zipers until he had perfected his jacket manufacture. I supose John needed to generate capital. Both jackets I sold on made their respective owners happy and they are both still very happy and much worn. To each their own ! Sounds like I'm the problem.
Good Wear jackets are now very hard to come by so I think that John has probably ironed out most of his issues and the jackets he is turning out are spot on - for a custom made jacket As I said,, I'd love a Doniger in a standard USAAF pattern/cut in a 46". I can wait.
A lot of the early hype over Good wear was just some people getting all wet over knowing personally the maker of their jacket. An experience a lot of us have with Gary and Alan at Eastman. (Knowing, not getting wet !). The other makers are all very remote linguistically, geographically and culturally.
Good Wear are great jackets but so are RMNZ, Buzz and Eastman. Depends on what you want much as top end Mercedes and Audi and BMW's are all great and we chose our favourite according to different personal criteria.
Cheers,
Dave

I would agree with all this. As someone who has owned three GW jackets I would say the Doniger is among the best A2s produced by John. The issue for me is not the cut, but that the horsehide does not really match the appearance of originals. I know it is impossible to 100% replicate the leather used in the War, but ELC's Warhorse hide is closer to originals than many of JC's horsehides and does not have the tendancy to flake off, which I know happens with spray dyed GW jackets.

 

[fishmeok]

I do not have the A-2 experience that many of you have, but I have had the opportunity to examine genuine A-2's (Doniger, Aero) and compare them to Eastman, (modern) Aero, and (current and pre-production) Goodwear on the same table at the same time. I am also in the process of making my own jackets and am gaining hard experience with the difficulties involved in cut, fit, and pattern. The Goodwear jackets are hands down the most accurate reproductions of the genuine article. It's all in the shape of the pattern, drape, and construction. The other manufacturers are all close, but just subtly "off" (mostly in the shoulders, pockets, and collars) enough to drive the more O/C among us completely batty. For me personally it's not so much the authentic detail as the correct fit and shape to the jacket. You can find enough period shots of guys wearing A-2's to justify ANY "type" of fit, but they all have the square, straight, and boxy look to them. The wider shoulders on most modern jackets ruin the period look for me. I can't say anything about the Japanese repro's 'cause I've never had the opportunity to examine one in person.

Admittedly I'm a little biased toward Chapman because he has been unbelievably helpful to my own endeavors, and I tend to bristle when people complain about stitching, quality, etc. because I know how damn hard it is to do, 'specially when you are a one man shop- but I'm just a hobbyist. I think many people are just too used to the economies of scale and mass market clothing to realize just how difficult and time consuming it is to make something like this by hand and completely from scratch on a single sewing machine. And that, in the end, is what really impresses me about the Goodwear jackets. Time, commitment, and craftsmanship.

Cheers
Mark
Climbing down off the soapbox

 

[I Simonius]

Riddle me this, riddle me that....Let me preface this post by saying I have all the respect in the world for John Chapman and his venture in the repro jacket field. With this said I would like for you gents to chime in and tell me what has happened to the rest of the jacket manufactures? Isn't there any competition anymore? Are these jackets "all that and more?" I have owned just about every repro out there sans GW.

can someone post a link for the goodwear site please I tried googling but no luck..

 

[HoosierDaddy]

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/index.html

 

[I Simonius]

http://www.goodwearleather.com/pages/index.html

thanks

 

[HoosierDaddy]

You're quite welcome...
HD

 

[Raymundo]

As everyone has stated, the top repo military jacket makers all produce outstanding jackets. I was able to try on several different A-2 jackets made by ELC at an Air Show last year and the quality of materials and workmanship was excellent. However, these jackets did not have a military or original feel to me. They were too nice and more like high end modern clothing. I have only seen pictures of GW repos but if I was going to spend $800 plus dollars on an A-2 I would rather have a custom made jacket from Mr. Chapman's company that would be a little more true to the originals. With the devaluation of the dollar vs the Pound and Euro, overseas buyers get a better deal price wise. I would say that it is worth the wait for many reasons already stated. Interesting topic, Steve. Wonder if your curiosity will lead to a GW purchase?

Ray

 

[RudyN]

I have my order in for a Goodwear A2. It will be a Perry Sportswear in Horsehide. John should be starting on it pretty soon (I hope )

 

[aswatland]

As everyone has stated, the top repo military jacket makers all produce outstanding jackets. I was able to try on several different A-2 jackets made by ELC at an Air Show last year and the quality of materials and workmanship was excellent. However, these jackets did not have a military or original feel to me. They were too nice and more like high end modern clothing. I have only seen pictures of GW repos but if I was going to spend $800 plus dollars on an A-2 I would rather have a custom made jacket from Mr. Chapman's company that would be a little more true to the originals. With the devaluation of the dollar vs the Pound and Euro, overseas buyers get a better deal price wise. I would say that it is worth the wait for many reasons already stated. Interesting topic, Steve. Wonder if your curiosity will lead to a GW purchase?

Ray

This is a sweeping generalisation about ELC jackets. They are nothing like high end modern clothing! The cowhide used on the new 50 Cal A2 is outstanding in terms of grain and the Warhorse horsehide is very similar to 1940s leather. There has been much debate on various forums about the relative qualities of Good Wear v ELC jackets. I have owned many ELC A2s and three GWs and have handled many original A2s over the years and currently own 8 originals and both GW and ELC jackets are excellent repros. Originals varied in style and fit as do modern repros. Similarly GW jackets and ELC ones vary depending on the contract reproduced. An issue for modern makers is that they have great difficulty in matching the leather used for war time A2s.

 

[blethook]

I agree with some of what both Aswatland & Raymundo said about ELC:

I think ELC has improved tremendously from where they were several years ago. I used to own a couple of ELCs but didn't like them very much because I felt they compromised too much, particularly in the fit as they were trying to accommodate the modern built bodies.

But the new ELC jackets appear to be different these days. I recently bought an ELC Werber, and was very pleased with the trim, military fit - no more compromises to fit the modern built bodies.

Soon after that, because of my good experience with the Werber, I decided to get another ELC A-2: The RW 1401-P. Again, the same level of satisfication that I have with the Werber. Other details also seem to have improved greatly.

They also have improved in the leather selection. The so-called warhorse HH is a great innovation that elevates ELC standing, IMO. In terms of grainings & jerky-ness I would put the ELC warhorse between the Aero smooth & Jerky HH - at least to start with. Who knows how great my two new ELC jackets would look like after a year of wear, or more.

The only negative point about ELC I can still pick up is that the collar cut seem to be (still) generic, regardless of the contract (except perhaps the Monarch). At least that's what I can see when comparing my ELC RW 1401 with the Werber. The stitchings also appear to be too perfect to me.

I plan to order one from JC, and from my correspondence with him it appears that he is also still trying to improve his jacket cuts & the hides used.

I think any manufacturers who continue to improve their products, taking inputs from their customers, are great and should be commended.

 

[greyhound68]

Well said. I have Buzz, GW, RMNZ, and ELC jackets and like each for their own uniqueness. As long as a maker improves based on customer input I applaud them.:eusa_clap

 

[Nighthawk]

I don't think that anyone has mentioned this, but is part of the appeal of GW the fact that John is offering so many contracts, and the fact that many of the contracts that he does offer are unavailable and/or no longer made by the other repro makers?

NH

 

[KhalilSheikh]

I would love to eventually get a jacket from GW...

I only own original A-2s (although I'm slowly getting rid of them), and the only repro I would consider owning is one of the Werber 1729 contract with the riveted 'hookless' talon zipper. ELC is the only one that currently makes it; in fact I recently ordered one.